I honestely can not believe how out of context you take my points. I'm actually not 100% sure if you read properly. I was using it as an example of why, just because a game has progression, it ISN'T an RPG. And yes, everyone IS adopting RPG elements, just like RPG's no longer just RPG's they are adopting other types of game and adding that to the mix. I never did enjoy playing MUD's. I was a gamer about the time of Super Nintendo.. Never played a normal nintendo I dont think. Never actually played WoW. Or any other MMO tbh. I didnt watch gaming grow and evolve, I was busy with other things, but I did enjoy gaming when I had the time. Anyway.. Lifes life. I dont like how skyrim is and you do. Fair enough. It has some good points, I just dont consider it a Good RPG. Its a pretty good Roleplactionadventure though.

EDITED: I'm just ranting, suffice to say, I refer to my earlier point that if you rely on stats to define your character, you are not roleplaying, and not playing a roleplaying game.

I do agree that quests and dialogue could have done with so much more choice thou. This does not invalidate its status as RPG.

Naturally the issue is the definition of RPG, Its an RPG to me, its not an RPG to "omg how do I roleplay without 100 stats".

Stats. Not the basis of personality, and not the basis of character.

I lol'ed at the pyramid

Character definition: Perks, there are over 200 perk slots but you will only ever attain 81 perks... choose wisely
also with the point system that alot of table top RPG use you can max out everything if you play long enough... sounds like skyrim

You have a lot to choose from but they cannot incorporate every possible angel without massive amount of work, and in truth that's how most camps are run, infact most players are lucky to have more then one choice as alot of GM's like to focus on a you are helping these guys and these are your enemies.

Lets take a look at the things like WOW & GW, you have more non quest dialog in this game then ether of those MMO's put together and everyone knows there both RPG's, i also want to add you have 2 choices in wow. Horde or alliance, and in guild wars their is no choice.

For computer games skyrim is one of the top in RPG games, it is true that it does not hold a candle to a full fledged tabletop RPG but i have yet to find a video game that goes into that much depth

Your first was Oblivion?

Also WOW and GW are RPGs? Joking right?
Ppl just don't mention mmorpgs here they are absolutely irrelevant. Different genre. Another story.

It doesn't have branching dialogue.
It doesn't have much in the action and consequence area.
It doesn't have many support skills for each type of character build. (I'm a brutish Orc right now, so no magic, no stealth skills, no speech, no enchanting and he isn't a blacksmith, so what choices are left for me besides Heavy Armor and Twohanded?)
It doesn't have many choices in quests, most quests area actually quite linear.
It still streamlines you down a "good" or "evil" path with little to no middleground in the grey area.
It doesn't allow for multiple skills to be used to complete quests, if a quest is to speak to Camilla about Sten/Faendal then that it is, I can choose to kill both or ignore the quest, but I can't choose to mess it up for both of them so I can marry her instead.

So no, just cause it has a skill system and perks does not mean it's an RPG by definition, it lacks multiple components or has severe flaws in those it has for it to be an RPG.
It's an Adventure Game with RPG mechanics.

You can call SkyRim a fancy game of tic-tac-toe for all I care.... I could care less what you call it or feel what genre it belongs in.

Bottom line to me, it's fun!

Swedish people are smart. And drink a lot. That is why I like to live here.

Why would i even play a video game than ? why not just go and LARP.

Daggerfall - RPG
Morrowind - RPG
Oblivion - Action adventure
Skyrim - FPS

lol certainly have some appealing qualities, although I wouldn't consider clicking on someone else's dialogue choices in a "branching dialogue" to be my idea of RP.

What is this?

I don't even...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cJe5v5lLKk

If I see one more person spell Skyrim that way I think I might shoot them

i have yet to see a large change in combat so please tell me how this is an fps? I started with Morrowind, combat has remained the same since then. as for FPS how in the would can you label this a FPS, The only part about it that could be remotely considered an FPS is the First Person View, which can be changed to third and has been in ES since morrowind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYLvj5WrKAQ!

What a load of poppycock.

I've played DnD - not my favorite game since all to often the games end up being about murderhobos on a quest to kill things and take their stuff - but that is often the people involved. And sadly when you let people see the numbers behind the curtain all to often the most important thing about RPG becomes the ability to min/max your character into an unstoppable killing machine. Fortunately I have played with some good DMs who know how to write a story and people who want to play interesting characters doing interesting things in an interesting story.

I have enjoyed Call of Cthulhu, the WOD/NWOD games, Eclipse Phase and others a lot more. All of them have plenty of crunchy numbers if that is your fetish. What I care about is being able to RP easily and smoothly. I want to look at the setting, see a character and play them, these games deliver so I am happy to enough to roll dice.

I really don't care about mechanics. I think visible attributes are an outdated concept. I understand maths isn't going anywhere but while I am RPing I don't want to be reminded my character's actions are, at core, a bunch of numbers. I want them as integrated and behind the scenes as possible. In real life I get out a bike, I ride it, I get better at riding a bike and I get fitter. I don't put numbers here and there. In a game I want my character to get better by doing, not by me sitting there four 10 minutes at level up thinking about the best use for this +1. I want organic progression. Fluid progression. Natural progression. If I can't have it then the next best thing will do, and the more attributes are behind the scenes and not in my face the better.

Really I think from the way you are talking, it is you that want security nets and ease of play. You don't want uncertainty or the thrill of the unknown or RP opportunities - because lord knows knights and archers of old went into battle only after looking over "mathematical formulas determining if they hit and how much damage they'd do". Oh wait, they didn't. They trained and acted. You want to be able to grab your calculator, run your finger down a column of numbers and satisfy yourself that when you press r you will kill something, which is no different then what you claim other people are doing, only you get to dress it up pretentiously because lots of numbers are smart (I have played rpgs that make this mistake).


Yes, and Kotor is linear. All games are, essentially, but the effort put into the illusion they aren't differs game to game. Kotor, as fun as it was, was fairly linear. It certainly does better in the companion stakes (but then Baldur's Gate II from before Kotor does better than both of them). But it is easy to include effects on the game when you will largely be following a linear progression through it.

Unless you are talking about classic quest choices - you have an evil choice (which is almost always chaotic evil) or a good choice (which is almost always lawful good). Often based on money. You want light side points, you drop Republic credits as fast as you earn them. You want dark side points you never pass up an opportunity to be a jack ass (because lord knows what the movies showed us were the Jedi as intergalactic Mother Teresa's and the Sith as intergalactic jerks that would try and trip the elderly as they walk down the isle of the bus).


People prefer making pointless comparisons in order to create the impression their straw-men have substance then actual arguments...

Of course one wonders what happens if I were to say I hate transformers and love the Godfather, hate bieber but love the Beatles, couldn't stomach more of Twilight than a chapter but loved Crime and Punishment enough that I reread it a number of times and used it whenever I could in every major paper and test of my educational career and at this point in time still isn't sure if my favorite ESG is Skyrim or Morrowind...

That it is, but it could have been even more fun.

Ratchet and Clank is an action adventure game. Skyrim is very much an RPG.
Most skills are based on your character. Speech, pickpocket, sneak, one-handed, two-handed, archery, smithing, enchanting, alchemy, heavy armor, light armor, alteration, destruction, restoration, illusion, conjuration are all very much character based. Only block and lock-pick could even remotely be counted to be partly player skill, but that's it. Partly.
The world feels much, much more alive than any RPG I've played and heard of. All the so-called good RPGs that we have had in the past have all had lifeless worlds.
Skyrim should be counted as what it is. An RPG to the fullest.

How the [censored] are attributes adding to the roleplaying experience, you are kidding me, right? I am playing pen and paper btw and the perk system imho is a big improvement to previous Elder Scrolls games, because you CAN'T max everything anylonger, you have to be specialized in one way or the other.

Since Morrowind there weren't many choices in TES. In MW you could decide, which house you would belong to and which guilds you wanted to be head off (not all of them were possible) otherwise it really was along the "I take the quest, I don't take it"-lines. In Skyrim you can decide to join Stormcloaks or Imperials and if you want to join or wipe out the Dark Brotherhood, otherwise it is "Take it or leave it" again. Not as much choices as in Morrowind but also not that less!

Dude, if you miss text based dialogue you are a nostalgic blockhead. I liked it as well, because it can provide more content and lore, but being spoken to adds to the immersion. In pen and paper the dungeon master also provides the voice for the NPCs, granted with more dialogue and reacting to the player, but try to implement this in a videogame of this size, we wouldn't be able to play the game for another year. Bethesda is counting on the Modders to overcome this aspect for the guys, who want it, but imho they can, because Vanilla Skyrim already provides are good experience and was worth the 47 Euros I paid for it. We don't have a Bioware game here with a carefully laid out storyline, which changes based upon the players actions.

//edit

Oh and the only things Morrowind had gameplay wise, which were more RGP like the system in Skyrim, were the success chance with weapons and spells and the amount of NPCs in the world.

This man speaks wisdom.

What i expected Skyrim to be (based on Fallout 3 and Oblivion, in that order) was an open-world dungeon crawler with just enough plot to have a reason to go around killing people and strange and curious creatures, and Skyrim fills that expectation perfectly. The rest is bonus

Exact genre doesn't matter to me, only how well it does what it does and do i like what it is it does.

This 100%.

I agree, it's a space flight simulator.

You either misread what I wrote, or you mistake the core objectives in other kinds of games. Playing a role as the objective in the game, not just as an objective in the game, or as just something done in the game, is exclusive to RPGs. It is their defining characteristic. That characteristic, not any specific mechanics, is what makes Dungeons & Dragons and Skyrim RPGs, and it is what makes Tomb Raider and Battlefield 3 not RPGs.

Pretty much this. :\ I can't define my character beyond either accepting a quest, not accepting a quest, and then the possible murder of said quest giver. I can't be a sarcastic [censored], or a thug who demands extra coin, or a ponce who just is a dike to everyone. If I don't get any interaction with npcs, any choices I 'make' for my character are rather meaningless! I mean the whole reason for wanting to play a game, versus just using my imagination and I dunno writing a book about my character, is due to there being feedback from a source that I don't create or control.