Yes and no actually.

You are referring to certain game mechanics which if exploited would trivialize most challeages provided in the game. However the secret to those game mechanics are the result of countless experimentations by a number of dedicated seasoned gamers.

A novice player who never looks online for min-max character builds would also not discover the mechanics until much much later, mayhaps never. This would in effect be the case for most players.

Patience and self restraint. Less is more in Skyrim.

Wow you have a really low opinion of people lol

You bloody thalmor j/k

In theory, yeah, I'm trying this myself in fact, but the game is still to damn easy.

I'm playing on the hardest difficulty, I don't fast travel, I don't have a companion, I've turned off all my HUD (including crosshair for my bow), I don't even wear bloody armour, rarely even use my skill points (in fact, I think I only have points in archery), and have only every leveled up stamina. I think I'm ~30 hours in with my character, and I'm already so rich to the point where money is no issue. I can go down in one or two hits, but I still get by just fine. I don't even have an arrow shortage, which I thought would be fixed.

The economy needs a massive adjustment, rooms and carriages need to be like 500% more expensive, arrows need to be more expensive, we need more things to spend money on (repairing weapons, food, though I RP my eating habits), and carry weight needs to be greatly reduced (though I think I just found out stamina increases that).

I still have fun I guess, I just wish I was scraping by.

Oh, and I want a doggy to be my friend, but they make the game downright easy : [

I have never gone over 30k with my new character. I made training unlimited but 2x more expensive. I don’t waste time making 300 daggers and enchanting them with petty souls kos that’s booooorrinnnggg. I just play the game and buy training when I have enough money.

The economy is only in a bad state if you let it get that way, when I treasure hunt I only take the shiny stuff at the end of a dungeon and some of that gets kept in my house instead of sold. You don't have to fill your bags everytime you go somewhere. Gold gets out of hand the same way armour and enchants do if you don't bother to limit yourself, you just end up with too much.

I think it helps to be a mature player who has the patience to take his time and not FT everywhere, but a mature player will never get the quality of gameplay and story out of Skyrim like he can out of Baldur`s gate 2, planescape Torment or Morrowind. Even later watered-down games like Dragon Age have more going for them in terms of characters and depth you can get into.

The test is simply in whom you remember fondly from a game. I remember Jaheira, Minsc, Imoen, etc fondly - I only remeber Lydia and that`s only because she`s with me 24x7- She has absolutely NO charcater compared with ANY charcter from any baldur`s gate or even DA game.

But yea, if you`re patient and willing to oversee the obvious dumbing down, a mature person can use his imagination to get something out of Skyrim. You certainly need imagination and roleplaying abilities to get the best out of Skyrim. Graphics alone is not enough.

Were it so easy, I'm a huge collector in these game, anything interesting I keep for myself to display in my house (Once I get one of course. And you should have seen my house in Morrowind, one of every damn weapon/armor set.) I haven't exactly been monitoring what I've been looting, but I won't stuff my inventory every time leave a dungeon, I'll usually sell the little shiny things I find, rings and the like. I like to travel light anyway, no unnecessary stuff in my inventory, and plenty of room for ingredients.

Point it, the more I have to actively monitor my actions for the sake of keeping the game harder, the less immersed I get. Self restraint can only go so far before it gets in the way of playing the game.

I'm wondering if I'm the only person on this thread who played the original first edition of D&D when it came out as a pen and paper game...and I recall the owner of the game store handing it to me and saying, "Have a look at this...what do you think?"

I guess that entitles me to an opinion, and my opinion is that we shouldn't let ourselves become 'elitist'.

I've seen it happen in the p&p role playing game community, way back when D&D players were considered by some as devil worshippers, and I'm seeing it happen the further Beth develops the TES series. The 'I played morrowind and I know the lore, therefore my opinion is more valuable than yours' grows old very very fast...so suggesting that 'seasoned rpg' players may or may not get the best out of a game can lead to there being less active seasoned rpg'ers on the forums as newer players get p'd off with that attitude...which means less varied views, less actual valuable input to Beth, and may lead to less innovative games.

It's just something we should be aware of.

The problem is bethesda has made these games so people don`t have any restraints which means those of us who want a realistic challenge have to restrain ourselves. Bethesda think that because some people find it `no fun` then surely everyone must find it `no fun`.

I have to restrain myself so much where before I was naturally restrained. In Morrowind, Fast travel except by logical transport was impossible, no need to restrain myself. Certain things I could not do without the prerequisite skill, like Lockpicking- Without the skills or magic I couldn`t pick a lock- In Skyrim I can pick a Master Lock with no skill. ETC, etc, etc,...


To really enjoy Skyrim, a Player has to always artificially restrain himself if he wants an immersive realistic game.

Y`know I played a shooter once where the game Devs took out reloading of your gun in the game, because it was `no fun`. I love ducking behind a wall and reloading. just because something is no fun for some don`t mean it`s no fun for all. I was thinking of starting a topic on what is `fun` to people...

I think in general Skyrim is the kind of game that is what you make of it.

Someone who follows self-imposed rules and restrictions for their character, never fast-travels, never uses markers, and tries out lots of gameplay enhancing mods etc. is going to have a vastly superior experience to someone who just beams themselves straight to the action, looks for the quickest ways to have an all-powerful character, then never touches the again once they're done with the main questlines.

In fact the difference is so dramatic that it's like the two people are playing completely different games.

I remember when I first played Oblivion before I understood it`s handholding, I was running around staring at the GPS marker to the next person. It wasn`t until I found myself running into walls and not even paying attention to the world that i realised what an awful crutch things like the GPS was. I was like a Lab rat following a piece of cheese on a bit of string oblivious to all. I wasn`t immersed, I wasn`t playing a game, i was just following a triangle on a screen! I wasn`t even having fun! It was a completely pointless waste of time.

That was when I stopped playing until I could find all the Mods to get rid of all that so I would once again actually search and EXPLORE and be entertained.

If it had not been for Mods, Oblivion would have been sold away long ago.

Skyrim has an option to disable quest markers, or I was just seeing things?

I think that everyone can get the maximum out of Skyrim, in their own way.

And I think balancing a game like this is almost impossible, due to the variety of people who play the game. I saw numerous posts on this forum claiming Alduin was a walk-over. I for one had rather large difficulties to defeat him. Does this makes me bad, or does this tell you that maybe for other players it's even more difficult?

On the other hand, the fact that in some ways Skyrim can be easy, it leaves perspectives for certain combinations of playstyles that could be considered less than efficient, which is what i like. For example, I made a redguard, in full redguard clothing with 2 scimitars and the use of alteration. You'd think it would get old fast, but I myself was surprised of the fun I was having.

Alternative modes is also an interesting idea I think. It could be an answer to a better difficulty balance, for easy-hard casual-hardcoe gamers. Since they tried to implement this in one way, there were bound to be imbalances in a game this big.

In short, it's good to give Beth some feedback on how or what, but saying that it's a bad game or it's only for real RPG'ers? No.

It requires a mature and seasoned RPG player to get the most out of Skyrim?
my Answer is No...
i'm 30, played Dungeons & Dragons and Vampire for a lot of time
Skyrim is simple, is quite an Action RPG, everyona can play it and anjoy it.

You needed to be a seasoned and mature RPG player to play games like Baldur's Gate or Morrowind...
my 2 cents...

As a mature and seasoned RPG player, I can come up with a perfectly good RP backstory as to why I overpower my character and OMG even grind her skills.

As a mature and seasoned RPG player, I love Skyrim for completely different reasons that have nothing to do with character builds, strategies, limitations (though I have them, it didn't occur to me that it's the mature and seasoned RPG overlord in me setting them).

As for Dragon Age 2, why exactly are we not allowed to dare to compare Skyrim to it? I just did a couple quests for Companions, and guess what, both quests took place at the same locations I did other named (named, yes, not some autogenerated misc) quests at. With respective NPCs from previous quests hanging around those places still. And no, those were not some legendary huge burial sites and ruins like Saarthal where it makes sense to have a few serious quests at the same place. Those were your average generic cave and keep, generic bandits replaced by genereic Silver Hands, saying the same lines the bandits earlier did. Different quests in the same dungeons? Rings a bell? To me, this looks like yet another Beth's self-ironic wink, just like 'All That Remains', pardon, Blood on the Ice' quest.

One thing this game does do, is call out those who really dont know how to "role play" at all. Most of them are the ones who post "im bored" and "No choices" and "50 hours in and same thing, all dungeons" ... and the best is anything to compare to Morrowind

It actually shows that there are people who think they role play and are "RPG'ing" when the OFP says it all which I agree with. All the posts you get about Skyrim that complain never actually explain HOW they actually played it to get "bored" and so on. You never see that part, and I bet you most cases are all based on people being only aware of the game doing things as opposed to the fact its about THEM playing it.

Its a bit like people playing a flight sim and saying "Im bored its just full of jets and you take of shoot things and land".

I simply wanted Sandbox approach, mods to last, and multiple ways to approach it, this gives me everything.

If people started a character and played it JUST like it was you stood their and excluded all things you could not do (fast travel) and not be strapped to the quests and "to do" lists like a umbilical chord, took time, ignored exploits, ignored trainers, ignored console, it would be different.

I'm not sure about you but I've been wandering about in TES games since the day Arena was released.
I think that qualifies me as a "vet"... and I love Skyrim.

Don't speak for anyone else besides yourself. You only look foolish.

Vast majority of the people who play skyrim do not visit game forums.

Even a lot of those that do visit the forums may not have seen the threads detailing the process.

Even those that discovered the process by themselves are most likely not using the most effective and strongest form of it. Meaning the form which allows you to beat 50 Dragur Death Overlords spawned directly beside you.

Anyway, ALL high elves have a disdain for the lesser races, not just the Thalmor. Their religion/history/world-view calls for it.

To the OP-

My thoughts are that since you made up your own limited definition of what "get the most" means, OF COURSE you can also pick the play style ("seasoned rpg player") that will reach that goal.

But that's like saying you need to be a homosixual to "get the most" out of the game, because you can limit yourself to wedding NPCs who have the same gender as your character. Its both tautological, and narrow minded, and vaguely offensive. Impressive hat trick!

For what its worth, I think I'm an expereinced RPG player; a couple author credits in RPG books would tend to support that. (Yup, I'm talking table top RPG's - remember those?) I had a blast playing through Skyrim the first time in over 300 hours, and followed NONE of your guidelines. I power crafted my way through the game and used almost zero tactics beyond "avoid being killed, and deliver as many standing power attacks as fast as possible" in most fights. And now your telling me I didn't "get the most" out of it? Frak you, buddy.

No, I'm a seasoned RPG player since the late 80's and have played every TES game including Arena and Skyrim very quickly showed that it is shallow and nothing I did effected the world. The fact I'm a seasoned RPG player meant Skyrim showed it's shallowness alot more quickly then if I was an RPG noob.

very few of todays "rp" games have much rp in them. You are a roll player when you roll play a character that isn't you and act and do things he/she would do but you may not do.

a heavy rp player can try to simulate "life" in sence, make it feel real like eating twice a day sleep x number of hours and so on

I actually fail to see how someone who limits themselves so forcfully that they cripple half of the elements of the game can enjoy SKyrim more than a 12 year old who is franticly mashing his thumbs into his x360 controller as if his life depended on it!

Edit: btw it's role-player.

I enjoy being able to choose how hard/easy things can be.
i like restricting myself, by having a particular mindset for my characters individually.
Some shun magic, some shun other things.
Others can stand daylight and have to find ways to actually speak to npc's safely.

You are a wise man!