How did they move away from super mutants in fallout 2? the base you destroyed in FO1 some how managed to retain enough FEV to infect hundreds of Enclave slaves[plus Frank] and accidentally turn them into super mutants, despite it being stated in the first game it took the master years of experimenting to do the same thing. [you also ran into remnants of the army] Fallout 2 continued to work from the Lieutenants theory about the wastelanders being partially immunized towards FEV as it was the basis of the enclaves virus.

I ask again why do they get to rewrite cannon from Fallout 1 to 2 but the same couldn't be done by Bethesda from 2 to 3[which was simply adding FEV to Vault 87]


Reverse the sterility a new source of FEV, basically the same thing, undoing something previously established for gameplay purposes.

Exactly, so we can sit around like a bunch of NMA basemant trolls, bashing Beth canon, or we can logically think out why there would be FEV in 87 etc. I find the latter to be more productive and less standoffish, like this thread is quickly turning to.

The Supermutants in FO2 were a sideshow. You only need to enter combat with 1 (if you count Horrigan) to win the game. Mariposa can be bypassed completely, and the Broken hills mutants have settled down.

As Opposed to Fallout 1, where they are the major enemy of the game.

Why does there need to be evidence a to why its there. Its not important as to why is there beyond Vault-Tec are a bunch of A-holes.


That's actually a plot hole I noticed in Fallout 2. The tested the virus so it wouldn't hurt the vault 13 residents but would kill the wasteland subjects. Hence why they kidnapped the two groups to begin with.


They sent Vault 13's spare water chips to Vault 8, and Vault 8 second GECK to Vault 13. They are clearly capable of simply mistakes.


Not if they lacked a sample of the virus, they sat back in their bunkers for years totally ignorant of what was happening in the world. Then discovered it over run by mutants, then they began their big plan. There is no evidence to support The Enclave didn't know about FEV before arriving at Mariposa. Just because the High command didn't tell there underlings what was there doesn't mean the ones giving the orders didn't know. There the secret shadow government, cover up is there thing.

The super mutants wasn't the emphasize of the game as the spot light shine in Fallout 1. We seen super mutants pratically integrate into societies and a whole bunch of new elements were added in (more cities, culture, and the Enclave).


The thing is that this is only Bethesda's view of Fallout when putting thing together and trying to give out the Fallout experience rather then researching the lore and looking into it deeply, then give out the Fallout experience. If they did look deeply into the lore, they could have just added in a research log in either the Vault or the Enclave's Raven Rock that the FEV moved from the West Coast to the East Coast.


But then again, we have to do this with EVERY piece of the puzzle that was presented in Fallout 3 when we are dealing what went twisted all these years. Then we have to look at it in a logical sense (in term of Fallout Universe) and why its there. Simplying adding thing there for lulz is not an answer I would take in well.


Even bad guys would leave behind as a hints to their ethic just so the player get to know what and how it is going on.


As test Subject. I am sure there were account that some of the vault 13 residents did got kill during the experiment. Heck, even their Vice President when crazy when he "volunteer" for the experiment.


Simply mistakes and what the hell moment for those who play Fallout 1. Does not stop the fact that the President acknowledge this as well and how this "mistake" fit into the whole plot.


But being all the "secret shadow government", they should already have a sample and research of this FEV at their disposal. I really doubt the ignorant part as they are still monitoring all vaults and their experiments.

So basically if they had added a single note about FEV research being done in Vault 87 you'd be happy with it. The entire existence of the vault its self isn't enough you want the paper work of the transfer to go with it. I don't see why a note saying why its there is really necessary. Vault 87 is right in line with the other horrible things the Vault Experiments do.

Maybe Bethesda didn't want to tie down a reason why so future games wouldn't be headlocked by that decision. Maybe the FEV experiments were an original part of Vault 87's plan, maybe they originally intended genetic engineering to accomplish human advancement but one of the researchers said "Hey I used to work at West-Tec back west and there was this funny thing we used there called FEV" By not explaining the origins of Vault 87 it makes it more mysterious and keeps the door open for later.


They monitored the vaults not the wasteland.
And why would they have a sample? the virus didn't come to fruition until long after the war, to the Enclave at the onset of the great war a sample wouldn't have been seen as useful. Especially if they know a vault is already experimenting with it. Assuming they had a sample would it still be comparable to the one that sat in the tanks of Marpoisa for decades while the master did his experiments?

I would be happy with it if they go on mentioning they "move" a containment of FEV to the East, but they did not go into explaining it, hence why we are still talking about it here. As for the other Vault Experiments of Fallout 3, some are done on the line of reasonable logic (Vault 92, Vault 101, Vault 112), other just doesn't make sense of how the vault dweller still live in there or how X thing got in there (Vault 108, Vault 106, Vault 87).


Then that part should have been mention to us already. And again, no support or say about the say Vault or the FEV on it.


If they monitor, then they would know about Vault 87.
I see they have no trouble of playing Big Brother isn't really the problem for the Enclave. I would expected that a professional organization to keep track and records of everything within their knowledge, research, and development in regards to science, politics, and other means if they are taking the part of going to outer space or ruling the post apocalyptic setting very seriously.

Just like Fo3? <^^<

I miss Behemoths, I'll take rare, gigantic monsters to fight over a nitpicky piece of lore detail anyday.

Clones keep making clones, all the insane vault dwellers were already dead and you simply imagined them attacking you. Easily explained


Having the research of FEV and having a sample are two different things, by the time they realized they needed a sample it was just easier to take it from Marposa then develop it themselves, and as I said they need to be sure its the same strain used to make the mutants. [years in a decaying ruin and decades of experiments by the master could do some things].
The Vault 87 strain was also clearly different then the one in Mariposa. Which is why FO3 mutants continue to grow, are even stupider, yellow and oddly enough walk upright. It was also delivered in a gaseous form rather then injection or submersion. Its research they acquired before it was lost might not have been helpful with the current situation on the west coast.

The Vault is a wreck beyond livable. By then, the cloning should have stop and left with either old geezers or all dead while the insane vault dwellers would have move on outside or make the vault look "livable".


Though by logic of holding all scientific record, the Enclave should have both the research paper and a sample of the FEV to begin with. Even if they stumble upon it in Marposa, they would have done some comparison with the strain, not to mention, again, that all before that, they have release it in the air to kill all the "mutant". As for the "Super Mutant" transformation, I recall that Fawke was kept in his cell for a long time, kind of showing that this happens a lot while back. http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline#2078.

No, I don't miss Behemoths; never particularly cared for the concept to be honest.

"realism" or more accurately suspension of disbelief is a funny animal.

Yes it's a fantastic world with laser guns and mutants and all sorts of wacky things.

But there's only so much leeway you get while still seeming to be coherent.

I think Behemoths went past that point.

Really? I didn't think Behemoths were particularly far fetched for Fallout; I never liked the concept, but I never found them unbelievable for the setting. We are talking about a setting where radiation can significantly increase the size of animals after all, so I don't see why it can't have a similar impact on those who were exposed to a certain strain of FEV.

I can understand the argument concerning the amount that a Behemoth would have to eat to sustain itself, but outside of that I had no problem accepting them as a part of the Fallout world.

Thinking about it, suddenly the east coast mutants make sense.

Mariposa was not nuked. West-Tek getting nuked vaporized the FEV. Vault 87 took a nuke head-on, but thanks to being a Vault, stood up to the attack...but the radiation shielding wasn't quite enough. Those super mutants on the East Coast are different (dumber, and prone to prolonged growth rather than stablizing in size, as well as coloration) due to the fact that they are made with highly irradiated FEV. The virus has mutated (and thus, Eden's plan was likely hosed from the word go).

Mind you, I also want to see a Behemoth getting mowed down by Nightkin.

Oh, gotcha. As you probably noticed, you are not alone.

This isn't just a problem for behemoths, it's a problem with the setting of Fallout 3. Why is water such a pressing concern compared to food? There is lots of water, and it really isn't difficult to purify water. On the other hand, the land in the D.C. area doesn't seem capable of producing any food. A population can't survive off of old microwave dinners for two centuries (...or two years, honestly).

On topic: No. I don't miss behemoths. I do wish there were some similarly epic fights around, though. Deathclaws are much harder, but other than them there aren't many challenges in the Mojave to deal with. Perhaps if Caesar's legion was a more serious threat.


The next DLC should definitely allow you to cross the Colorado and lay waste to some Legion cities. :toughninja:

Yet we dont have to add a bunch of stuff, just that a shipment of FEV, most likely a very early stage of it, was shipped to VT from "Unknown source" to be used in the experiments. Its not a large leap of faith to connect the prewar government in any form,VT and the FEV. Three was not the bastard son that a lot of people claim it to be, but on the other hand Beth seemed to be running on nostalgic steam when it came to connecting the series canonically.

Most likely because virtually the whole dev team admitted to have never played the games.

Nor take their time to read.

On the otherhand, all the concept art and ingame artwork is really well done; only if the story team did as much study as the art team.

Bomfy -- sorry to have riled you. I guess we all have things about the Fallout games that annoy us even when we know better. It's the light switches that get me. Why, even in powered buildings, can't I turn on the lights? So, peace, sir, and accept my apology.

Anyway... if it helps, here's my take on the Behemoth food issue.
As far as what they eat is concernedt, it's clear that East Coast super mutants eat human beings. The gore bags are everywhere we find them. So there is an available food source, albeit one that fights back.
We don't really know how much they need to eat. You are right that in the real world a normal large animal generally has to eat a lot (the exceptions are reptiles, some of which can go for months without eating). Perhaps, in addition to food, they are partially sustained by the virus. Or maybe they are solar powered. The game doesn't tell us.
My theory, which I just made up, has to do with politics.
Now, we don't, as far as I know, possess much knowledge about the hierarchy of the Vault 87 mutants. None exhibit any great measure of intelligence; as Tabitha would say, they are dumb-dumbs. We could suppose that their power structure roughly corresponds to their physical might -- we'd end up with a progression from plain old super mutant up to overlord (despite their relative sizes I can't see a behemoth defeating an overlord, can you?). But one thing we are told is that the mutants keep growing as they age (I don't have a reference for this. Does anyone remember where this is said?). The conclusion one could draw from this is that behemoths are very old overlords, very huge but somewhat enfeebled with age.
Is it possible that those venerable old mutants, so few in number, are being fed, as tribute, by their lesser brethren? Are those trinkets we find in the bags really there by accident, or are they part of the tribute? We know behemoths carry a lot of stuff they don't use.
Or, like that guy noted above, raiders. You have to admit, they breed like rabbits out there. And, apparently, keep their kids in holes. Just like rabbits.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming that in-game data supports this. I'm just trying to use the available lore to explain an in-game mystery. It's something I find myself doing way too much.
(For example, did you know that robots are refilling the soda machines? And that food preservatives in the Fallout world were so effective that treated food never spoils? And that stimpaks and other drugs go bad unless they are kept in special, high tech first aid boxes?)

Mostly goes along with the "rule of cool" gamesas does. Just like the exploding cars. West coast they make excellent fortifications east coast they're left rigged to go critical if you spit on them. Boy would I like to find the guys that instead of saluaging all those easy to use power sources to create some settlement went around and rigged all those fusion PP to blow up!

You know, I actually agree with the point that it isn't unreasonable for FEV to be in vault 87 (there are much larger logic gaps to fill in Fallout 3), but your statement that bashing Bethesda's canon is 'being a basemant troll' is ridiculous. I have never played Fallout 1 or 2 (well, I played an hour into 1 and stopped). I came into Fallout 3 with a fresh perspective, having no clue who any of the factions were, and the setting still made little to no sense. The Bethesda canon is awful not because it contradicts established lore, but because internally it can't stand up.

Al D - Apology totally excepted and no hard feelings. Maybe I was a tad too touchy when I felt like my opinion (which I had admitted in this case was something I particularly stubborn about) got twisted all up and changed. So my bad on that part.

Light switches never really bothered me much, I guess it's cause we like the games so much we find these little nit picky things to have bother us.

We don't know about how much they eat, just a pretty damn good idea what the source is, and it does fight back. A Behemoth couldn't take an Overlord, and it was the wiki were I saw the info about size increasing when they age. I could see the virus causing the size increase with age and the gradual deterioration of the mind, that makes total sense.

And you theory about how they are fed is just as viable as the others, we have no solid clues as to what the truth is. Also the wiki theorizes that the stuff on them is because they are also used as pack mules. Makes sense since they are very strong dumb-dumbs. But, we don't know for certain.

The Raider idea is also a solid theory, it just gets me thinking that is takes a while for a child to become somewhat self sufficient and then you have the Behemoths progressively knocking the amount of advlts down and blah blah blah, I look at this too damn logically. Not saying that it might not be the right one, I just don't see it. Like I never fully bought the lame explanation that Han Solo did the Kessel Run in less that 12 parsecs (normally an 18 parsec trip) by skirting a black hole.

We have a lot of things in the FO Universe that we have to interpret from the info we have, and that's part of the fun. I never knew for certain about the robots and the soda machines, but I thought that, since they are the ones that are least affected by the situation of the world, they just follow programming. I read the food thing in a thread long ago, and that makes sense since we eat prewar food and don't die. I had no idea about the drugs and stimpacks since sometimes you find them in locations out of first aid boxes and they have obviously been there a long time. It would be cool if we had 'aged' ones that had depleted effects.

Finally, class act for apologizing, that's almost unheard of on the Internet and very cool of you. I normally tend to take things very laid back, but for some reason this one thing gets under my skin. I know it shouldn't, but it does.

I don't. I thought they were kind of stupid. <_<