While I do miss spell crafting a bit (though I have mods, so it isn't -that- big a deal), I don't miss acrobatics at all.

Thanks. And that was a funny video. Awayyyyy.

Record sales says no.

I miss acrobatics a lot, I had a very special good time in Morrowind when I discovered how cool it was.

There are two.

J'Zargo and Brelyna.

The record sales are largely because of the reputation of previous TES games and Skyrim is dragging down that reputation. Skyrim is shallower and has less replay value, the magic system is particularly bad due to it having been stripped of many spells, stripped of spellmaking and being unbalanced to the frustration side of things overall. Melee is completely unbalanced to the overpowered side through Smithing and Enchanting, making the weakness of mages even more pronounced.

It is almost as if there was a deliberate effort by Todd Howard to make using spells as undesirable as possible:
-No passive damage boosts
-No Spellmaking
-No leveled spell damage
-Lots of missing spells
-Ridiculous mana cost
-Inaccuracy for ranged spells due to casting animations

^this is the stuff I would do to Oblivion's magic system if I was trying to ruin it.

Stop accusing Todd of single handedly destroying TES. I freely admit Skyrim is not perfect, but those being asked 'What are Skyrim's problems?' and pointing at Todd have NO idea of development processes what-so-ever.

Instead, blame console and mass marketing. We are the 1%. By making a game that appeals to everyone they have lost the hardcoe niche PC audience somewhat (but modding tools rectify this, IMO - a sign of good faith from a dev for once.)

Now, I will point to Skyrim's problems:

1. No deep, divergent quests
2. No consequences at all
3. No attributes
4. Removing skills that encouraged alternate playstyles
5. Putting emphasis on voice acting over deep dialogue trees
6. 'Arcade-y' combat - dual-wielding daggers should not be more effective than sword and board. Perhaps a Florentine skill would be good, but not without dual-wield parry and much more complicated combat.
7. Making that in seemingly everything your the Big Damn Hero. Can't I be a mook for once?
8. Removal of weapons that encouraged alternate playstyles.
9. Making all crafting skills must haves.

No they did not drop the most unnecessary , they just cutted all the stuff that couln't make in time for the 11 11 11 cool date idea... probably the game woudl still be unrealeased right now with the whole team busy fixing bugs and implementing the last features ... and may be it would have been better ...

As right now why release the killcames for magic and arrows now when they shoudl have been released at the beginning? Well better now than ever surely tough ...

No, I will not do that. Todd owns the magic system, it's his baby. Todd said Spellmaking was too "spreadsheety" and it was his decision to remove it. Todd was the director of this game, it was him who had the final decisions on these matters and through the interviews he gave we know that the stuff like this was precisely his choices.

If the magic system was awesome, he would deserve lots of praise, because many of the big design choices concerning the magic system were from him. So it is for the same reason that he deserves to be pinned with it's failure and I shall continue to say such.

Todd Howard went crazy with the scissors on the magic system. Todd doesn't understand the concept of balance for either magic or melee. Todd doesn't get the big picture when it comes to Spellmaking, Attributes and Major Skills, that they served purposes beyond the first 30hrs you play the game.

Unfortunatly... Skyrim is good, despite being a terrible TES game. But still better than 99% of the crap released by any other dev.

Maybe but Two Worlds 2 has a standard protagonist, that right there means it's inferior to Skyrim.


This, regardless of whether Beth dropped the ball with Skyrim or not, I would take Skyrim over the COD's and Assassin Creeds of the world.

1. I like the quests, as do many others. They are, for the most part, much larger in scope than Oblivion's questlines, and they feel much more organic.
2. The Elder Scrolls have never really had consequences in the game (at least not hard-hitting ones), because it becomes insanely difficult to code an open world where major changes can happen to that world.
3. I didn't like attributes, and they never really fit in with the Elder Scrolls philosophy of actually doing something to level a skill.
4. As you can see from this thread, many people didn't like those skills to begin with. They also added skills that weren't previously available.
5. Morrowind's trees (I have to assume you're referring to Morrowind here) weren't deep, they were encyclopedic. It seemed as if half the population had read all the same books on the same subjects. Skyrim hasn't gotten its dialogue perfect yet, but the voice acting is a huge leap forward from Oblivion.
6. Combat works great for me. And since it's not the main focus of the series, it makes sense that it's not going to be as dynamic as, say, Assassin's Creed.
7. If you want to play a completely unimportant person, don't start the main quest. Of course, one has to wonder why you're playing a game in the first place. Too much excitement in your real life as an international man of mystery?
8. I can only imagine that you're referring to spears. Which have been a debate since it was announced they weren't in, and there are plenty of people who don't miss them at all.
9. I have characters who only use one crafting skill, and I have characters who use none. They aren't essential.

Edit: Also, what's the point of making a game for the 1%? I mean, sure, the developers would get to walk around with their pinkies in the air, but they'd probably be doing that while holding a sign that said "Will code for food." You develop games that more people want to play. You don't develop them to please the smallest possible audience.


Skyrim has already passed Oblivion's lifetime sales, and about 7 million of the 10 million units sold thus far were sold after opening weekend. Meaning after reviews came out and even after the game started winning awards. You can say that it's just riding on reputation, but online ratings, both from critics and players, prove that wrong.

hah, good one

Yeah, I also love responding to an argument by laughing it off instead of providing substantive critique.

I, for one, do not miss Oblivion's quests which involved an hour and a half of traveling to pick a book up from a store, ending the quest. Just look at guild quests in Skyrim: it seems like there's less to do than in Oblivion, but it's because all of the main quests for the guild have multiple stages and can take hours to complete. And if you think that the Daedric questlines in Oblivion can even be compared to those in Skyrim, you're out of your mind.

I wouldn't say they "Dropped the Ball" with Skyrim. They stumbled a little bit, and it cost them bleeding perfection. But it's certainly a better game than Dark Souls or Kingdoms of Alamur and Mass Effect 3.

The game is a big improvement on Oblivion.
Not perfect but very good.

I still think Oblivion did some things better though.

Cities, specifically the feel of legitimacy to them, to name one. Also certain guilds. I like the Fighter's guild in particular, a lot more than the lolcompanions.

That's a pretty short list though.

Here's another one of these topics that seems to forget what Oblivion was when it first released.

Let's all jump forward 7 years or so, when Bethesda releases the next installment of TES, that way we can all say what a crap game that is and praise Skyrim for how much better it was!

I can guarantee you this.

If you released Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim side by side in their original state upon release, Skyrim would hold up very well.

In fact, go grab your install cds for all three games and do just that. No mods. The release version of Skyrim is better than Oblivion on all counts. Morrowind was better than both, and with an updated game engine and graphics, would be the winner. Oblivion, definitely not.

I agree on the level scaling and the RPG elements. It's technically an RPG, but only technically. All of the stuff that makes it an RPG are pretty shallow. The guilds are mostly a joke (other than the evil guilds, and even then, it's not great), and throughout there's a lot missing in the quests or even logical progression in the guilds. The guilds are supposed to be the elite at what they do -- but they can't do a thing without you. it's a narcisistic fantasy world for 14-year old boys -- where the whole world is about them, and they and they alone are able to lead the guild, save them from disaster, and do it all without breaking a sweat.

I also find the lack of choices in any quest -- especially choices with a real consequence -- makes it seem shallow. I'd love to have one faction hate me for joining another. At this point, I'd like to end the civil war and have the rest of these Nords realize that the war is actually over, and one leader or the other is actually defeated. It just doesn't happen. I don't even need to watch my back in Solitude while wearing full stormcloak armor or in Windhelm dressed in Imperial Armor. Something should happen if I do so, unless every Nord in Skyrim is blind. I don't see anything in any quest that affects the world -- and without that, it doesn't seem like a world so much as an "it's a small world" type ride.

The perks would be cool, except that any quest can be solved by bashing something over the head. I've done a few different builds, and for the most part, skills that aren't combat related aren't needed. Speechcraft isn't needed because any quest that should require fast talking can be solved just as easily by bribing the guy or bashing him with your fists. Anyone, even the Skyrim equivelent of a Buddhist monk, will fight you when you choose the brawl option -- and you. will. always. win. Merchants don't have enough cash to take avantage of the better deals. I could sell my armors for "15% more" if I could find one that could afford my armor.

No.

No, I don't feel they dropped the ball.

Nope, I love the game.

Bioware however....

Todd Howard was justifying a decision made by multiple people. They don't just go, 'OK, alright Todd, whatever you want!' there are shareholders, designers, and other such people that influenced the final product. The magic system may be lacklustre but you can't pin it on a single person.


You misunderstand me. I do not want a game for the 1%. Okay, I do, but it's not commercially viable. That's what I am trying to say to the people that insist that they've sold out to the 'casuals.' We cannot be catered to by major companies and we'll have to look toward the indies like Flying Wild Hog and CD Projekt Red (I understand the irony of stating these two examples).

Also, replying to the main post:

1: They are good, but they are not great. You get what I'm saying? Either you do a quest, or you don't. RPG's should NEVER railroad you into decisions, no matter how good the quest is. For example, going the Good path in character alignment means you get the crappiest stuff - you gotta be evil to enjoy the best questlines and to get the best rewards.
2: I'm not talking about major consequences, just enough to feel the weight of your actions. Not something like having Whiterun destroyed, but actually changing your reputation, how people deal with you, etc. If you're possessing Daedric items Vigilants should kill you on sight, people should refuse to deal with you, etc. But these barriers could be overcome with say, Speech, Bribes, Intimidation (trade with me or die!).
3: Different strokes for different folks; I'm of the opinion the character we craft should be uniquely our own.
4: That's fine.
5: No. I'm not talking about Morrowind. I just want deeper dialogue, and no voice acting is the easiest way.
6: There should be a hardcoe option. It's basically shield bash, hit, shield bash, stamina potion. It's hard to play for me without Duke Patrick's Heavy Weapons Combat or Deadly Combat.
7: I have never started the main quest except for my first characters. But it's not just the main quest. In every guild quest, YOU are the one who saves the guild / world / whatever.
8: Spears yes, but what about crossbows, flails, handcannons, etc.?
9: If you want the best weapons, you need Smithing. Alchemy is the best way to get the best bonuses. Enchanting is the least useful, but it's still pretty important.

The ultimate measure of sucess is how much money Skyrim made. I'm betting it's more than the rest of the series combined, so that's hardly dropping the ball. Those changes and others made the game more mainstream, which enabled that.

You might be right about mass marketing, but don't get into that "blame the consoles" claptrap. PC gaming is pretty much a dying trend, and for good reason as consoles are more efficient (no hardware upgrade treadmill like on PC) at getting the job done. Only downside is console players cannot use mods to compensate for Bethesda's design shortcomings (but that's a TES specific issue).