How is dawnguard going to intergrate with current TES lore a : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:12 pm

The Falmer. Let's put this in perspective....

If someone comes knocking at your door, claiming to be homeless and hungry, but you yourself are suspicious of them and worry about your safety, would you let them in? Would you compromise with yourself and say "I know, I'll let him stay with me but I'll regularly poison him to keep him weak." No wtf, that's PSYCHOTIC. That makes [censored]-all sense and it's the type of thing that would land you your own page in the DSM IV, along with a mental disorder specifically named after you. And this is what the technologically advanced, intelligent Dwemer came up with? What the hell???

Dwemer poisoned the Falmer to keep them weak and subdued. This made it easy to keep them. They did this because they made their metal out of them. Also, Dwemer have always been portrayed as sadistic. It's in their nature.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:05 am

Except that's not the motive assigned. It wasn't "they wanted to experiment on them," but rather "they were paranoid and distrustful" that was said.
I agree with you it is possible to assign emotions or motives that make the situation make more sense, but my point is that Bethesda somehow failed to pick the right emotions and motives, and THAT scares me. :tongue:

Maybe they didn't trust the Falmer because the Falmer were too loving? :laugh:

But yeah, not the same thing. From what I remember, part of the Dwemer's mystery was that their motivations were so very different from the rest of the races, and that could make them appear crazy.

New theory: the Thieves Guild are secretly Dwemerborn.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:13 pm

Im excited about this game. I always wanted to vampires to be more powerful. I also love the idea that you as a vampire have a purpose and that is to destroy the dawnguard and enjoy darkness. Im truly excited

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:18 pm

Ok Bieltan, look at this from their perspective.

"Ok, it's time to create the Volkihar, after all it is Skyrim."
"Should we follow the lore-based facts we already provided about them in Oblivion?"
"What? Are you mad?? That'd make ZERO SENSE AT ALL!!"
"....wat? How so? This is how we said they would be."
"Yeah but it's been 200 years! Obviously that would mean they should be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Look at how much our orcs evolved in 200 years! Look at how much our Argonians evolved in 200 years!"
"....Not at all?"
"SILENCE!!!!!!"
"....So what are you suggesting? How should we make them?"
"EXACTLY like the Cyrodiil strain."
"...One, that makes less sense and two isn't that just an excuse to use less resources and copy-paste the existing vampires we have into our next game?"
"Well then what do YOU suggest, smart-guy?"
"Something new? Perhaps...something that follows the lore?"
"SOMETHING COMPLETELY NEW?!!"
"No, I mean something in lore that we haven't done be-"
"BRILLIANT! How about Vampires EXACTLY like in Underworld?"
".....WHY? That's a blatant rip-off of another series and we've left no indication for the Volkihar to be like that!"
"Isn't it obvious? All forms of vampires, if left to their own devices for over 200 years, evolve into stereotypical Underworld vampires. God, didn't you ever take biology in high school?"

Do you REALLY think that's how it went down? That they conciously decided it's illogical to make them like....yknow like they used to be?
I'm sorry, but that just makes zero [censored] sense. Stop making excuses for what's quite obviously a decision driven by profit.

Although I'm late to post this, I would say, Longknife, that there was a rather humourous viewpoint you described there.

I'd totally agree with your statement.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:40 am

...i not even gonna ask what kinda sick person would think a skinned horse would be a good thrall

I am offended. Good day.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:46 am

Wait, we're claiming Oblvion as some rock on which all lore is based? When Oblivion turned lore on its head? You're aware that Cyodiil was supposed to be a jungle, right?

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:48 am

More or less lore while it isn't my main concern im just wondering if the vampire group isn't the volkihar but infact they are the Ideal Masters, as they control the soul carin since the vampires seemingly have a portal to the soul carin just my opinion but until we learn more that would work with the lore nothing like revisiting places from the game battlespire.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:41 pm

Wait, we're claiming Oblvion as some rock on which all lore is based? When Oblivion turned lore on its head? You're aware that Cyodiil was supposed to be a jungle, right?

And filled with rice farms!!!

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:45 pm

These aren't normal vampires. These are the Ideal Masters... I think.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:25 am

In fact... they feed off souls as well as blood. I bet that is significant.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:50 am

In fact... they feed off souls as well as blood. I bet that is significant.

Yeah im wondering if there isn't a much sinister purpose to blot out the sun, Perhaps the ideal masters are preparing to invade skyrim?

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:27 am

The Ideal Masters were some kind of floating crystal things. Since the vampire mentioned "feasting on the souls of the living and the dead", I figured the vampires were breaking into the Soul Cairn to steal souls from there. In Battlespire, they were uninterested in anything outside their realm, but you could convince them to help you because they didn't like the Daedra rampaging through the Soul Cairn. They might be opposed to the vampires then.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:26 am

The Ideal Masters were some kind of floating crystal things. Since the vampire mentioned "feasting on the souls of the living and the dead", I figured the vampires were breaking into the Soul Cairn to steal souls from there. In Battlespire, they were kind of uninterested in anything outside their realm, but you could convince them to help you because they didn't like the Daedra rampaging through their realm. They might be opposed to the vampires then.

Your absoulty [absoulute?] right i forgot they were crystal beings remind me to brush up on battlespire lore. Anyway thats a interesting point i hadn't considered well we will find out whats what when dawnguard comes out.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:26 am

Oh dear what a bad post.

On the vampire part- Who better be the one to write it? A priest? A tasty human scholar? Someone so egotistical or money hungry that they write them selves anon? A Vampire is the most likely and unbiased person to write of this.

Akatosh IS the same as alduin. Bethesda Just couldn't be bothered to keep it that way so they changed it last minute . It's not technically feasible to have a Literal world eater now is it? (also- First born of akatosh could also mean that he was the first aspect of akatosh)

TES is not static; it's lore is ever evolving and being expanded upon. All previous reference to Alduin being Akatosh was never proven fact, but rather written speculation.

The fact that the events of Skyrim prove otherwise is not so much Beth changing their minds, but rather building on concepts they never realy fleshed out before.
Beth has said previously that the books/written lore of Skyrim is not 100% factual truth, because they are written by people.

People can be biased, deceptive, incorrect or just plain ignorant when it comes to writing books, myths and stories that have been handed down over generations get embelished.
A lot of legends that exist in our world are most likely based off real events and people that have been distorted over time, from a exceptional warrior to ending up as a demi-god ect.

Beth has never shown Volkihar in a game consistent with what is written in that book (a single book btw, no corroborating evidence)
Because there has yet to be events in game depicting them, then there is no 100% solid lore on the subject.
This is why Beth making the Volkihar whatever way they are making them in Dawnguard is not lore contradiction.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:09 pm

People always forget that each country/province (/whatever) has their own gods. This is why they believed Alduin was Akatosh. Mixed beliefs as such.
Not only that, but it is said that Alduin was the first born. Maybe he was the first born from Akatosh? The first born living representation of Akatosh? Who knows?

Other than that, I've heared countless times of people saying this upcomming DLC ruins and contradicts and just screws over lore. But if you think about it, the DLC could be just like a seed. It can grow and evolve and maybe create a whole new chapter for the Elder scrolls series. Just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it's rubbish and it should be left out. It could prove to be an epic story for future games.
It's the same with any other good story, you can't keep hogging all the same baddies and making them return constantly like some Spiderman cartoon. You have to embrace the change and be prepared to see what the Beth team throw at us.

Imagine if the new DLC was for the Oblivion crisis to start back up again, and Mehrunes Dagon started clowning around in the living world again. My bet is that 90% of the whole Elder Scrolls Fans would go NUTS. Doing all the same stuff again, it would be like "seen this, done that."
Now that we've got a new enemy and a new setting, perhaps the Order and other Vampire clans can actually be integrated into the game propperly, and how the Lore wanted them to be.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe this is just a stepping stone to something greater.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:54 am

Beth has never shown Volkihar in a game consistent with what is written in that book (a single book btw, no corroborating evidence)Because there has yet to be events in game depicting them, then there is no 100% solid lore on the subject.This is why Beth making the Volkihar whatever way they are making them in Dawnguard is not lore contradiction.

Volkihar vampires already exist in the game and are currently no different from the Cyrodillic strain of vampirism.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:38 pm

Volkihar vampires already exist in the game and are currently no different from the Cyrodillic strain of vampirism.

This is because Immortal Blood is a non-fiction novel that uses poetic license in order to be more interesting. Not a factual study of vampires.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:25 am

This is because Immortal Blood is a non-fiction novel that uses poetic license in order to be more interesting. Not a factual study of vampires.

Yet the problem lies in the name, if the Volkihar vampires are already present in game and people think that the Vampire Lords are Volkihar (Castle is named Volkihar) then there is a major difference between the two strains.

Immortal blood may have used poetic license to make the appearance of the Volkihar seem more exotic but the author is alluded to be a member of The Order (he shares traits with said clan), why would the Cyrodillic strain be 100% factual in Immortal Blood and other vampire related literature (and even Daggerfall/Morrowind vampires) but not the Volkihar?

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:53 am

One thing that I find worth mentioning is that Nirn's sun, Magnus, isn't a star as we understand it. It is a literal hole into the realm from which magicka originates. Likewise all the stars that we see in the games, are similar holes. The perception of stars is due exclusively to the mortal mind's inability to fully grasp the reality of the situation.

I think what makes more sense to think of it as 'closing the hole' rather 'blocking the sun.'

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:36 am

Would be interesting if it turned out Harkon was either a Volikhar who decided he didn't fancy sitting under ice and so "rebelled" (since the Volikhar weren't likely organised it would be hard to rebel against them truly) built up his castle, or named it after them having brutally eliminated his competition, reducing the once mighty Volikhar to little more than straggling survivors. Then he went about building the vampires he wanted through various dealings with daedra etc.

This would actually make the DLC (even) more interesting if the Volikhar could be a third faction trying to rebuild after Harkon wiped them out. Unlikely to happen though.

EDIT: Also, I agree with the points that TES lore isn't static, though I understand the frustration when they change it to be what someone feels is less interesting. 90% of everything established in Arena has been thoroughly retconned, and quite a bit of Daggerfall too.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:28 pm

Would be interesting if it turned out Harkon was either a Volikhar who decided he didn't fancy sitting under ice and so "rebelled" (since the Volikhar weren't likely organised it would be hard to rebel against them truly) built up his castle, or named it after them having brutally eliminated his competition, reducing the once mighty Volikhar to little more than straggling survivors. Then he went about building the vampires he wanted through various dealings with daedra etc.

This would actually make the DLC (even) more interesting if the Volikhar could be a third faction trying to rebuild after Harkon wiped them out. Unlikely to happen though.

Ditto that. I'm hoping that the plot is much more layered than the trailer presents us. Considering my current character is more of a friendly neighborhood vampire that isn't blindly for the evulz, I'd be impressed to see the possibility of going double agent on Harkon. Granted, this would be an increadbly niche consideration, so I don't truly count on it.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:14 pm

...i not even gonna ask what kinda sick person would think a skinned horse would be a good thrall

Necromancers done care what condition their dead is in... The dead are not suppose to want to come back and be dressed up. There was a book I cant seem to recall that stated a mages guild filled with Necromancers, in the middle of no where.. They had turned a child who was ill into a thrall

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:13 pm

Source for this? All of the books that we have, as far as I know, on the Elder Scrolls conclude that very little is known about them. In game they've been used to look backwards in time, send you-know-who forward in time, and to remove the curse of a Daedra. All of this was done by, we can assume, those who know very little of the scrolls. I'm sure that in the hands of the knowledgeable they could be used for something far greater such as, y'know, closing the sun. Unless you have a source to back up your claim.

I assume the third example you quoted was the final thieves guild quest in Oblivion. The scroll didn't remove the curse. All it did was to provide the insight on how to remove the curse. How it was accomplished is not revealed but, considering the artifact, it's entirely possible that it allowed the reader to see a past or future thief that dealt with the curse.

ES can manipulate time or, rather, defy the laws of time and space allowing subjects who interact with them to overcome the limitation of the time-space dimensions.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:37 pm

Yet the problem lies in the name, if the Volkihar vampires are already present in game and people think that the Vampire Lords are Volkihar (Castle is named Volkihar) then there is a major difference between the two strains.

Immortal blood may have used poetic license to make the appearance of the Volkihar seem more exotic but the author is alluded to be a member of The Order (he shares traits with said clan), why would the Cyrodillic strain be 100% factual in Immortal Blood and other vampire related literature (and even Daggerfall/Morrowind vampires) but not the Volkihar?

It's called author's point of view.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:17 am

This is my main qualm with this DLC, how they will make it lore friendly... I'm hoping they will come up with something but im afraid they may just shove it in without explaining how the hell vampires which have existed for hundreds of years have only just now discovered how to turn into bats (which isn't even mentioned in other Elder Scrolls games).