How is dawnguard going to intergrate with current TES lore a : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:20 pm

They aren't selling out as far as I'm concerned, Ill be enjoying Dawnguard when it releases whether or not there is some lore that is "incorrect" for the universe that they made...if you don't like what is in the DLC don't buy it....if you think they are selling out don't support them (however I feel that people will still buy the DLC just for the right to complain on these forums).

Yes, heaven forbid I stay here and provide constructive criticism instead of immediately throwing a fit and never buying from Bethesda again because they produce ONE title I don't like.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:36 am

Yes, heaven forbid I stay here and provide constructive criticism instead of immediately throwing a fit and never buying from Bethesda again because they produce ONE title I don't like.

Never said you would throw a fit, all I am saying is don't buy the DLC if you don't like whats in it, or do buy it and tell them what they could do better. But don't assume that everyone is going to agree with you and that your word is say all be all. The OP's attitude is rather elitist; just because you don't like the way things are doesn't mean that you should force that down the throats of other people. Now I am all for the constructive criticism but as I stated before, don't assume that your opinion is right.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:30 pm

Do you REALLY think that's how it went down? That they conciously decided it's illogical to make them like....yknow like they used to be?
I'm sorry, but that just makes zero [censored] sense. Stop making excuses for what's quite obviously a decision driven by profit.

"Bethesda didn't do what I want therefor they're wrong and driven my profit!"

Because for them to go "Hey, we got some pretty good reception on that Vampire Lord and people really dislike the Vampires in Skyrim, perhaps we could give them a more mass appear, make them powerful and badass" would never happen. They did what they think we would like and at the same time what they think is cool and interesting to do. I really don't understand people's contention to this, we know nothing of the story of this game how can we assume it will break lore.

More important than that is that we know almost nothing of the Volkihar clan prior to Dawnguard and they're pretty free to do whatever they want with the clan. That being said, I hope the logic here isn't "Well, it hasn't been mentioned or shown before therefore it can't exist!".

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:57 pm

Dawnguard is just a crappy B movie end of the world plot. Bethesda cant get too complex for the 12 year olds who make up the majority of their audience.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:30 am

Ok Bieltan, look at this from their perspective.

"Ok, it's time to create the Volkihar, after all it is Skyrim."
"Should we follow the lore-based facts we already provided about them in Oblivion?"
"What? Are you mad?? That'd make ZERO SENSE AT ALL!!"
"....wat? How so? This is how we said they would be."
"Yeah but it's been 200 years! Obviously that would mean they should be COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Look at how much our orcs evolved in 200 years! Look at how much our Argonians evolved in 200 years!"
"....Not at all?"
"SILENCE!!!!!!"
"....So what are you suggesting? How should we make them?"
"EXACTLY like the Cyrodiil strain."
"...One, that makes less sense and two isn't that just an excuse to use less resources and copy-paste the existing vampires we have into our next game?"
"Well then what do YOU suggest, smart-guy?"
"Something new? Perhaps...something that follows the lore?"
"SOMETHING COMPLETELY NEW?!!"
"No, I mean something in lore that we haven't done be-"
"BRILLIANT! How about Vampires EXACTLY like in Underworld?"
".....WHY? That's a blatant rip-off of another series and we've left no indication for the Volkihar to be like that!"
"Isn't it obvious? All forms of vampires, if left to their own devices for over 200 years, evolve into stereotypical Underworld vampires. God, didn't you ever take biology in high school?"

Do you REALLY think that's how it went down? That they conciously decided it's illogical to make them like....yknow like they used to be?
I'm sorry, but that just makes zero [censored] sense. Stop making excuses for what's quite obviously a decision driven by profit.

Haha I did enjoy reading that, your back and forth put a smile on my face

Well, maybe these volkihar will have some of the powers described? Maybe there's more 'feral' volkihars and secretive civilised ones? God knows. It'll be interesting to see exactly what is what when the DLC lands

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:27 am

"Bethesda didn't do what I want therefor they're wrong and driven my profit!"

Because for them to go "Hey, we got some pretty good reception on that Vampire Lord and people really dislike the Vampires in Skyrim, perhaps we could give them a more mass appear, make them powerful and badass" would never happen. They did what they think we would like and at the same time what they think is cool and interesting to do. I really don't understand people's contention to this, we know nothing of the story of this game how can we assume it will break lore.

More important than that is that we know almost nothing of the Volkihar clan prior to Dawnguard and they're pretty free to do whatever they want with the clan. That being said, I hope the logic here isn't "Well, it hasn't been mentioned or shown before therefore it can't exist!".

How do you know they got good reception? There's just as much bad reception for them as there was good.
And we do know about the Volkihar. Read Immortal Blood.

Even if the idea were popular, it's SO cliché. It's the type of thing that 16 year olds just gobble up, without realizing it's been done a million times before.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:56 am

Dawnguard is just a crappy B movie end of the world plot. Bethesda cant get too complex for the 12 year olds who make up the majority of their audience.

So you have access to the DLC before all of us? Please enlighten us a little more.....Before you get your panties in a bundle wait for it to come out. Also instead of insulting people who will enjoy the DLC why don't you stop being so close minded. I'd be willing to bet a majority of the players are in it for the gameplay and not the lore (if you are looking for deep lore or rich universes I suggest reading some books, H.P Lovecraft comes to mind)

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:41 am

So you have access to the DLC before all of us? Please enlighten us a little more.....Before you get your panties in a bundle wait for it to come out. Also instead of insulting people who will enjoy the DLC why don't you stop being so close minded. I'd be willing to bet a majority of the players are in it for the gameplay and not the lore (if you are looking for deep lore or rich universes I suggest reading some books, H.P Lovecraft comes to mind)

You do realize Todd Howard himself is always raving about how video games are an art form?
And yet their writing department seems....incredibly lacking?

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:56 am

How do you know they got good reception? There's just as much bad reception for them as there was good.
And we do know about the Volkihar. Read Immortal Blood.

Even if the idea were popular, it's SO cliché. It's the type of thing that 16 year olds just gobble up, without realizing it's been done a million times before.

Who cares if it has been done before, this might be their only exposure to a vampire story. I personally have never read or watched any vampire movies or books and I am a college student. You are using broad stereotypes; good arguments shouldn't be based off of what YOU perceive as being correct....you strike me as someone who likes to find fault in things....I'm not saying that you don't have the right to but when you use that cliched "16 year old" crap I find it hard to take you seriously. And just so you know all of the vampire crap thats floating around nowadays aren't cliches; they are archetypes for other things to be based off of and improve upon. So like I said....wait for the DLC to come out before you flip your [censored].

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:52 am

The original Volkihar would've made for a cool monster encounter, but I'm not sure they would've worked very well as PC vampires. Reaching through lakes would be a lot of extra development work for something that wouldn't see much use, because sitting under the ice for the remote chance that something walks by wouldn't be very exciting. Their other power, freezing breath, would've been good in any other game, but in Skyrim any character can learn to do that. They could've put them in as enemies only, but then people would wonder why they can't catch vampirism from them. Maybe that's why they're changing them.

It's possible they wrote Immortal Blood not intending for it to set down vampire powers for the next x games at the time, but the descriptions resonated with people more than they expected. The main point of the book was to introduce the Cyrodiilic vampires that came with that game, and the others may have just been put in as possible examples of powers that vampires might possess for contrast. They seem to minimize the other ones, always describing them as being one of many clans or being confined to one geographical region of the province. I'm not really expecting four types of vampires with very different unique traits in Valenwood.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:11 pm

don't buy the DLC if you don't like whats in it

That is never a valid argument, just because they have a problem with e.g. 30% of the product, doesn't mean that they can't voice their concerns about said product.

just because you don't like the way things are doesn't mean that you should force that down the throats of other people. Now I am all for the constructive criticism but as I stated before, don't assume that your opinion is right.

Opinions are just that, opinions. They're allowed as long as they fall within the forum rules so asking them not to post theirs here is ridiculous (That's your opinion)

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:34 pm

Dawnguard is just a crappy B movie end of the world plot. Bethesda cant get too complex for the 12 year olds who make up the majority of their audience.

Yeah, that's why their main story was about a prophesized hero destined to save the world from an impending doom "Dungeon's and dragons"style.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:50 pm

So you have access to the DLC before all of us? Please enlighten us a little more.....Before you get your panties in a bundle wait for it to come out. Also instead of insulting people who will enjoy the DLC why don't you stop being so close minded. I'd be willing to bet a majority of the players are in it for the gameplay and not the lore (if you are looking for deep lore or rich universes I suggest reading some books, H.P Lovecraft comes to mind)

Actually calling people close minded because they think differently from you. Well done sir

Anyway. Talk about compromise, How we can all be happy. Not why people who think bethesda should put Guns and rocket launcgers into Tes are idiots

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:07 pm

How do you know they got good reception? There's just as much bad reception for them as there was good.
And we do know about the Volkihar. Read Immortal Blood.

Even if the idea were popular, it's SO cliché. It's the type of thing that 16 year olds just gobble up, without realizing it's been done a million times before.

I was aware of the book, this is all it mentions though is that they're paranoid, cruel, have an affinity to ice and are very powerful.... So what have we seen so far that contradicts this?

I do like the sense of superiority that can be felt here, it's why I love the internet. Yourself and 'Earthlinger' are especially hilarious though, I mean, to disregard anyone who actually likes the idea as a 12/16 year old is a good one. Also, cliché is never an intrinsically bad thing, things can be done 100 times before and yet still be entertaining. A good example would be Dragons, the main focus of Skyrim.

Still, disagreeing with you both and heaven forbid liking the idea must make me about 14 years old, damn, guess my point is invalid then!

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:16 pm

Maybe it includes fabulous clothes for Altmer players to go with the horse. :banana:

They can just write more lore to an extent. It is the Soul Cairn afterall, most likely.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:00 pm

I was aware of the book, this is all it mentions though is that they're paranoid, cruel, have an affinity to ice and are very powerful.... So what have we seen so far that contradicts this?

"most powerful tribe, the Volkihar, paranoid and cruel, whose very breath could freeze their victims' blood in the veins. I explained to him how they lived beneath the ice of remote and haunted lakes, never venturing into the world of men except to feed."

"but you should know that the Volkihar have an additional ability you didn't mention. They can reach through the ice of their lakes without breaking it. It was quite a nasty surprise, being grabbed from below without any warning"

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:05 am

Actually calling people close minded because they think differently from you. Well done sir

Anyway. Talk about compromise, How we can all be happy. Not why people who think bethesda should put Guns and rocket launcgers into Tes are idiots

Actually, he was calling people close minded because they are making judgements on something without having played it yet. Its one thing to say that it conflicts with lore after having played it, but to do so before even knowing what the story truley is and whether it ties into or conflicts with the lore is very close minded.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:42 pm

It's possible they wrote Immortal Blood not intending for it to set down vampire powers for the next x games at the time, but the descriptions resonated with people more than they expected. The main point of the book was to introduce the Cyrodiilic vampires that came with that game, and the others may have just been put in as possible examples of powers that vampires might possess for contrast.

Honestly, they barely even got the Cyrodiilic vampires right. They released a second ingame book about the Cyrodiilic vampires when the DLC that added it had absolutely nothing to do with them. In Oblivion, we fought cave-dwelling bloodthirsty ravening vampires. We only came across Janus Hassildor and Jakben Earl of Imbel and also Lord Lovidicus who fits the description of what Cyrodiilic vampires are all about. But we saw no clan structure, no pro-vampire quests except for "Information at a price". The political manipulators were replaced by blood junkies who hide away in old forts.

While I am excited for Dawnguard and stoked for the gameplay, I can't help but realize that if they want to truly wanted to go pro-vampire, they could of made a quest involving the Cyrodiilic vampires versus the Volkihar. The real Volkihar could of been added with their natural powers and abilities, and maybe even the Thalmor could of been involved because wherever the CYrodiilic vampires are, there are politics and influence. Small wonder Janus and Sybille Stentor sent the player to take out nearby vampires. And it is little wonder why they both hang around fancy establishments and also is tied to the feeding of prisoners rather than the plot to take over a town.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:19 am

Actually calling people close minded because they think differently from you. Well done sir

Anyway. Talk about compromise, How we can all be happy. Not why people who think bethesda should put Guns and rocket launcgers into Tes are idiots

I wasn't calling him close minded for thinking differently; it was the way in which he presented himself that was close minded. And about compromise; here is a crazy idea......if YOU don't like the books that Bethesda puts in the game....hang in there......how about you don't read them? Oh wow...that was so hard....instead of whining about it use your own imagination to create the lore....If you don't like the in-game models or existence of vampire lords, and I quote all the pc-elitists our there, "I can just mod it out". Crazy theory right?

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:32 am

"most powerful tribe, the Volkihar, paranoid and cruel, whose very breath could freeze their victims' blood in the veins. I explained to him how they lived beneath the ice of remote and haunted lakes, never venturing into the world of men except to feed."

"but you should know that the Volkihar have an additional ability you didn't mention. They can reach through the ice of their lakes without breaking it. It was quite a nasty surprise, being grabbed from below without any warning"

Thanks for posting it, I tried but it kept disallowing the post on the forums.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:49 am

I wasn't calling him close minded for thinking differently; it was the way in which he presented himself that was close minded. And about compromise; here is a crazy idea......if YOU don't like the books that Bethesda puts in the game....hang in there......how about you don't read them? Oh wow...that was so hard....instead of whining about it use your own imagination to create the lore....If you don't like the in-game models or existence of vampire lords, and I quote all the pc-elitists our there, "I can just mod it out". Crazy theory right?

People DO like the books. They don't like when the books turn out to be completely pointless and false.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:57 am

Nope. That's an absolutely awefull argument we got there.

Firstly- CONSUMERS should not be expected to be DEVELOPERS to fix the game.

Secondly- Some of us view the story/lore is cool and engaging and would provide better game-play and plot points. Story wise it would be much better to attempt to interfere with the order's grip on cryodilic policies. Gameplay wise it would be much more interesting to fight icevampires that rise below and around you as you travel across slippery lakes. It would also be much better if we could have contracted both radically different strains. Perhaps the lore could have been expanded on in some kind of amazing way- Perhaps the some of the falmer were the first of the volkihar and taught them the ice magics.

Others don't see the story/lore as important. But if you don't.. How does it impact you negatively if the story is good enough for the rest of us? It's selfish.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:32 am

If you don't like the in-game models or existence of vampire lords, and I quote all the pc-elitists our there, "I can just mod it out". Crazy theory right?

That way of thinking doesn't work in the lore forums, everyone will be up in arms.

Even if Bethesda changed it so glaringly (I doubt they have) there would still be an up rise about it. Look at how Mass Effect 3's inconsistencies turned out, that practically created a storm on the entire internet with hundreds of thousands of people creating bad press.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:09 pm

I wasn't calling him close minded for thinking differently; it was the way in which he presented himself that was close minded. And about compromise; here is a crazy idea......if YOU don't like the books that Bethesda puts in the game....hang in there......how about you don't read them? Oh wow...that was so hard....instead of whining about it use your own imagination to create the lore....If you don't like the in-game models or existence of vampire lords, and I quote all the pc-elitists our there, "I can just mod it out". Crazy theory right?

In all honesty, Longknife has been called just about every name allowed by the forum rules, no surprise he/she is a little spikey by now. He/she is finicky about his/her lore, and thats fair enough, some people are like that. I'm musical, thus I'm very finicky about aspects of music that most non-musical people aren't. Not a perfect simile but you must see what I mean.

I've managed to have a civil correspondance with him/her (?) in this thread, there are others who have garnered a less than savoury reputation in my eyes thus far, but I wouldn't count Longknife among them, not at all. The key to debate is to recognise opinion, and to respect it until it can be 100% proven as wrong. Which it cant, either way.

Lets be civil people. Or I'll have to get on my purple, flaming, and VERY high horse. :tongue:

EDIT: wanted to clarify myself a little further.

» Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:58 am

Well, personally I have no idea how they are going to tie together, but I have a few ideas I think might be relevant. I doubt they aren't already mentioned, but still:

The Vampires:
One: There is already established that there are hundreds of vampier clans and we have next to no information about the few we actually know anything about(like the Volkihar) as all the references are either limited to a few clans or very vague.
Two: We know that Daedric Princes can and have in the past changed the nature of some vampire clans. Not to mention that it was a Daedric Prince that created them in the first place.

The Horse:
I think the only thing I can add to the table here is Shadowmere, who is clearly beyond normal in his/her immortality-ish traits. I have seen some say that Shadowmere is a daedra, and while I am not sure if it is the case or not, it would open the possibility for more "strange" looking ones if they have similar origins.

Personally I just hope these things are explained in Dawnguard.