How is dawnguard going to intergrate with current TES lore a

Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:30 pm

Dragonchris, the information was procured or given to the vampiric hunter by a hinted member of The Order, the most civilised and knowledgeable of the vampires.
An ordinary vampire could not perform an ice shout without proper training from the Greybeards, like any person. And I get the feeling they'd be reluctant to that wish.

The 'skeleton dogs' of Shivering Isles were mended into being through the supposed fifth school of magic, flesh. I suspect by Relmyna Verenim's experiments.
As well, a flaming skeleton horse running through Skyrim would be one of the most obnoxious and noticeable features of the landscape, if I may say so myself.
If villagers don't come out of their houses and start chasing you with pitchforks, torches, as well as their hounds, I'd say it's Bethesda betraying their own lore.

Also: Shadowmere should not be mentioned in response to this. The horse's only oddity is it's eyes, but that could easily be explained away in an hostile encounter.
Taking an undead horse in tow is like summoning a bonewalker in a Morrowind funeral procession. People should resent you or otherwise not open their shops to you.

1- and you are so willing to take a vampires word on something? Also I thought the book was written by the hunter who we see in skyrim as a vampire.

2- what your forgetting is that they can be older than the grey breads. As can be seen by the amount of voice users in the dragur, it was common knowledge before windcallers reforms of its use. It would only require one of the voice users to have become a vampire for the volkin to gain such knowledge.

3- and a horse could not be created in the same manner. It could very well be possible that such necromatic practices passed out of the shivering isles since free access was allowed. Also villagers don't seem to like the undead bandit following me but don't do anything about it. Necromancy is not illegal just shuned by the general public. They don't like it but they don't care enough to effect anything.
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Misty lt
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:47 pm

It could also be misdirection and deception on behalf of the writer. Obviously there is some truth in it, but because of the very fact it is written by an inhabitant of Nirn means that it is not 100% set in stone.

Thats the liberty Bethesda has when it comes to book-lore in the Elder Scrolls. The only thing 100% set is actual events of the game. and even then they can play around with it like they did with the whole dragon break incident of Daggerfall.

Scholars and authors of Nirn are not infallible. That is the thing to remeber.

This.

Why people keep using in-game books as factual lore I will never understand. The fact that its written by anonymous means it has the the same chances of being truth or fiction, credibility and reputation wise, because its unknown. So to assume that information in any in-game book thats not accounted for is factual is just naive.
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Spaceman
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:42 am

Post your theories on how it actualy works... Because Much of it looks likes it could simply be a few horror movie ideas thrown together. Many concepts (Volkihar Castles, Bats with vampires, Vampire Lord Tranformations, PFZH , Good looking Vampire leader, Elder scrolls blocking out the sun , Vampires considering only the dawnguard as a threat , Etc) Much of this either Clashes with already existing lore or Simply doesn't work when put down in it's most basic form. Furthermore some of us actualy care about the game's story. There are ways to explain these and this thread is for ideas on how to do so.

Not to tell people that bethesda can do what they want because it's their story and that books written earlier (such as immortal blood) are invalid because they get in the way of sparkly vampires. How would you feel if All the Nords weren't actualy people but rather khajit wearing fancy clothes.Or if skyrim became a hot desert for every subsequent Tes game. Or if the Jedi didn't have the force. Or if 2+2=4.481 . None of the lore in question negatively effects gameplay and most require either different dialogue or new books. Stuff like " Vampires use bats as part of illusion magic" is much better than "vampires have bats because we watched a movie and the vampires had bats and we thought that you would think it was cool because reasons." and things like "elder scroll makes sun go dark" are stupid whilst using an elder scroll to change the speed of the moons in such a way that they are always eclipsing the sun might be very clever. I still don't know how to justify the Purple flamed zombie horse.


Because its cool.
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Emily Jeffs
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:38 am

The Volkihar vampires in game don't act how they are described in the book though. Why? Because the author has used poetic license to make everything seem more interesting and sell more books. It makes sense to base the book on an actual figure as well, because then it seems more real for the audience and therefore exciting and scary.

I can't think of an explanation for why the author chose to remain anonymous. Who do you think the author was? My guess is an acquaintance of Movarth who thought he could make money from selling the story, but was afraid of Morvarth if the vampire had known he had written the book.

The volkihar vampires in game don't act how they are described in the book because Bethesda are an infinitely uncreative (or undaring?) developer waiting for a profit.
Spending payroll budget on ursusthropy or volkihar vampirism is useless when one can spend it on an already made concept which has been successful.
One knows that developers research typical populace interest before exploring a sales pitch to investors. This is seen as an assurance to both them and the investors.

Civilised vampires over barbaric vampires (Dracula vs Nosferatu) often comes out with civilised ones as the winner, so as they often appear in place of the other.
Why is this? because society (or more humans) relate to things which are more similar to themselves. Not a two foot tall ogre getting bullied by a horde of gremlins.
Other game developers buy into this concept too often. Like Bioware with their recent projects, Dragon Age II, Star Wars: The Old Republic or the Mass Effect franchise.

That is really why we don't see volkihar vampires true to the image of Immortal Blood. No, what we get first is Twilight vampires, now we're getting a taste of Underworld: Evolution's Marcus or Van Helsing's Dracula. Which I'm surprised has not been caught up in an copyright lawsuit- hell for they look deeply reminiscent.

-snip-

Your avatar is rather creepy, I'm not sure whether it's the eyeliner or the eye shadow. But still.. just, strange to one's eye.
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Nicole M
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:29 pm

The volkihar vampires in game don't act how they are described in the book because Bethesda are an infinitely uncreative (or undaring?) developer waiting for a profit.
Spending payroll budget on ursusthropy or volkihar vampirism is useless when one can spend it on an already made concept which has been successful.
One knows that developers research typical populace interest before exploring a sales pitch to investors. This is seen as an assurance to both them and the investors.

Civilised vampires over barbaric vampires (Dracula vs Nosferatu) often comes out with civilised ones as the winner, so as they often appear in place of the other.
Why is this? because society (or more humans) relate to things which are more similar to themselves. Not a two foot tall ogre getting bullied by a horde of gremlins.
Other game developers buy into this concept too often. Like Bioware with their recent projects, Dragon Age II, Star Wars: The Old Republic or the Mass Effect franchise.

That is really why we don't see volkihar vampires true to the image of Immortal Blood. No, what we get first is Twilight vampires, now we're getting a taste of Underworld: Evolution's Marcus or Van Helsing's Dracula. Which I'm surprised has not been caught up in an copyright lawsuit- hell for they look deeply reminiscent.

2 things

1- is fantasy not a popular interest. By the way you put things it would have been much better if the elder scrolls had not been about fantasy in the first place.

2- pretty sure the majority of vampires are not civilized. They live in caves, maul random travelers and alot of them are in the advanced stages so they lost their human look. Their for the most part animals. If you were to join any vampire faction they would have to be civilized enough to take in new memebers which is why they made the volkin more civilized than the average vampire. For the most part since oblivion barbaric vampires won and most people did not seem to like this kind.
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Suzie Dalziel
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:38 pm

I just don't understand the constant whinage about the vampire lords being non-lore. It is clear that these guys are best buddies of Molag Bal, who is the prince of corruption. He even created the mutants of Molag Amur. So creating these vampiric monstrosities would exactly something Molag would love to do. We already have Shadowmere so another ghostly/daedric steed is not going to make any more dents to the established lore. It all depends on how well Bethesda implements these changes. Even old clichés can be used well in the right hands. Bringing back the Dwemer would be the ultimate lore-[censored] though. Hopefully Bethesda won't stoop so low.
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flora
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:03 pm

Considering the other creatures I can summon with Conjuration, why not a horse? And vampires frequently, at least in TES, dabble in the dark arts.
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Vicki Gunn
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:06 pm

The volkihar vampires in game don't act how they are described in the book because Bethesda are an infinitely uncreative (or undaring?) developer waiting for a profit.
Spending payroll budget on ursusthropy or volkihar vampirism is useless when one can spend it on an already made concept which has been successful.
One knows that developers research typical populace interest before exploring a sales pitch to investors. This is seen as an assurance to both them and the investors.


Source?
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Benito Martinez
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:20 am

Everyone seems to be fretting over a flaming undead horse, although, if you think about it, how do you explain Shadowmere?
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Emily Jones
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:37 am

Source?

Hmmm.. good question.

I can describe the first source, although I can't directly remember the exact link. As it's been some time.
The source was from an ex-bioware developer whom wished to work his way up the ladder, get a game concept pitch in and get his game out.
However, himself and one of the heads there, after much research, found that there was just not much interest in the idea he was pitching for.

I believe the ex-developer went on to become an indie developer (untill his reserves ran out) to have freedom with his ideas without any marketing constraints.

The second source was my own direct observation of evolution of gaming avatars from the days of dungeons & dragons in 1974 to present day.
Marketing has followed a scheme from creativity in the late 80s, 90s and slowly died down in the past ten years. For our general society as a whole has suffered
from several recessions, budget cuts and crashes in the economy. Which in turn has affected several 'leisure' hobbies, the arts medium would be the greatest one.

Certain companies or individuals can avoid this problem through whatever means they have at their disposal, but still.. so many people fall through the cracks.

Developers who haven't got massive budgets reverted to simpler, more safe concepts to make sure they have a staple supply or flow of cash in their sales, to not go bankrupt. Bethesda is the opposite however, for after the huge success of Skyrim they should have enough cash to fix a few problems or lore inaccuracies.
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daniel royle
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:32 pm

Hmmm.. good question.

I can describe the first source, although I can't directly remember the exact link. As it's been some time.
The source was from an ex-bioware developer whom wished to work his way up the ladder, get a game concept pitch in and get his game out.
However, himself and one of the heads there, after much research, found that there was just not much interest in the idea he was pitching for.

I believe the ex-developer went on to become an indie developer (untill his reserves ran out) to have freedom with his ideas without any marketing constraints.

The second source was my own direct observation of evolution of gaming avatars from the days of dungeons & dragons in 1974 to present day.
Marketing has followed a scheme from creativity in the late 80s, 90s and slowly died down in the past ten years. For our general society as a whole has suffered
from several recessions, budget cuts and crashes in the economy. Which in turn has affected several 'leisure' hobbies, the arts medium would be the greatest one.

Certain companies or individuals can avoid this problem through whatever means they have at their disposal, but still.. so many people fall through the cracks.

Developers who haven't got massive budgets reverted to simpler, more safe concepts to make sure they have a staple supply or flow of cash in their sales, to not go bankrupt. Bethesda is the opposite however, for after the huge success of Skyrim they should have enough cash to fix a few problems or lore inaccuracies.

This is why I'm looking forward to the recent Kickstarter trend paying off. Not just for the games that come out of it, though of course that will be a plus, but I think it will be a way for developers to try new things on smaller budgets. When producers see the new things being successful, we'll see large budget games also being riskier and more innovative.
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Danny Blight
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 12:39 pm


2- pretty sure the majority of vampires are not civilized. They live in caves, maul random travelers and alot of them are in the advanced stages so they lost their human look. Their for the most part animals. If you were to join any vampire faction they would have to be civilized enough to take in new memebers which is why they made the volkin more civilized than the average vampire. For the most part since oblivion barbaric vampires won and most people did not seem to like this kind.
Most vampires are savages, unable to blend in society. Look at the Quarra, the Berne and the Aundae! The Bonsamu are nasty looking vampires who can only be detected by candlelight. Vampires are known to be feral and ugly blood-svckers. The Cyrodiilic clan was able to workaround this by making a pact with Clavicus Vile. Not only they looked like mortals when well-fed, they also did not have the bloodlust as many other vampires. Their cravings were lessened. And they are unique because they can blend in when fed properly. Sybille was civilized, Alva also, so was Janus Hassildor. All have traits of Cyrodiilic vampires.

I agree with Daroska in his points. But I also cannot wait to see what lore Bethesda is going to grace us with.
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Alyesha Neufeld
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:09 pm

A book written by a vampire (Well known for deception and misdirection) is not necessarily a credible source =P
Written lore can be contradicted because of the fact that it is written by 'people' within the game. These people are not all knowing gods, so therefore they may have things wrong, or written from a biased point of view.

Think about the book that claimed Alduin was the same as akatosh. We all know now that this was simply a scholar's mistake.

Oh dear what a bad post.

On the vampire part- Who better be the one to write it? A priest? A tasty human scholar? Someone so egotistical or money hungry that they write them selves anon? A Vampire is the most likely and unbiased person to write of this.

Akatosh IS the same as alduin. Bethesda Just couldn't be bothered to keep it that way so they changed it last minute . It's not technically feasible to have a Literal world eater now is it? (also- First born of akatosh could also mean that he was the first aspect of akatosh)
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Dustin Brown
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:25 pm

Everyone seems to be fretting over a flaming undead horse, although, if you think about it, how do you explain Shadowmere?

Shadowmere is an aspect of the void, Sithis, Padomay.
The horse is not beset by mundus's boundaries like the daedra because it is an overarching concept of force.
It is not only beyond the pitiable squabbles of the daedra or aedra, but is also out of reach for even Arkay's domain.

A flaming undead horse from the Soul Cairn can be banished, it can be killed, it'd also provoke to those nearby of your allegiance.
As in that you are a self-loving daedra worshipper who takes part in terrible acts of necromancy on Kynareth's natural kingdom.
Which is basically like going around the star ship enterprise wearing a red shirt- you're an open target to everyone.
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Rob
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:44 pm

I do not think it will be volkahir that is the vampires. They were all slain by Movarth Piquine and the oly things that pointed towards volkahir was a dragon diving into a frozen lake. I think it is a cult of vampires that is ruled by Molag Bal who have had som connections with vampires in the past.
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Natalie J Webster
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:06 am

I do not think it will be volkahir that is the vampires. They were all slain by Movarth Piquine and the oly things that pointed towards volkahir was a dragon diving into a frozen lake. I think it is a cult of vampires that is ruled by Molag Bal who have had som connections with vampires in the past.
I think it was mentioned in the GI article that the name of the vamp stronghold was Castle Volkihar.
A flaming undead horse from the Soul Cairn can be banished, it can be killed, it'd also provoke to those nearby of your allegiance.
As in that you are a self-loving daedra worshipper who takes part in terrible acts of necromancy on Kynareth's natural kingdom.
Which is basically like going around the star ship enterprise wearing a red shirt- you're an open target to everyone.
To me it seems that you're forcibly trying to find ways to make the story seem lore-breaking. Not to say that your points are not valid though, but I'd think commoners would naturally fear a demon-steed riding vampire. Perhaps some more religious faction (like the Vigilants) would try to hunt you down. Of course the AI of Skyrim is not that advanced to create dynamic responses from NPCs regarding your choices and actions.

There is btw also Barbas, a daedric being that could exist on Tamriel long periods of time, so a summoned horse would not be an impossibility.
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Danny Blight
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:08 am

I can explain why we have a purple flaming horse.. The dlc might be in a big world space.. requiring a horse for travel and exploration..
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Mrs Pooh
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:06 am

I thought that maybe the purple horse would be a normal horse outside of the Soul Cairn, but when you go into said cairn, it turns into the purple flaming horse.
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Rebecca Dosch
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:13 am

I expect Bethesda to pull out the "Harkon is the son of Lamae Beolfag."

Maybe that explains his Dracula-esque appearance.
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Amysaurusrex
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:48 pm

I didn't think about this one. You'd think they'd, yknow, be more concerned with royally ticking off Azura for forever banishing both Dawn and Dusk, instead of worrying about some two-bit stronghold of mortal knights. :tongue:

Agreed. From what we've seen, Azura is not one to tick off..

Anyways... The Vampire Lords are most likely Ancient Vampires. They have wings, and so many other abilities, due to their ancient bloodline and that they are living for so long. You can prolly turn into one if they decide to share their abilities with ye'. That explains the vampires..

As for their fortress, I'm betting it is de' Magical Icy Fortress from Arena. Name a better than a Frozen Fortress made of ice hidden in the snow of Skyrim while also being quite magical, for a Vampire?

And the Dawnguard had been mentioned before in de' lore, if I'm correct. They are a Vampire Hunting group so could be easy to add to the lore, like the Silver Hand.

Elder Scrolls can do anything....

The Horse is totally new. I have no idea how that came about.
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Campbell
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:58 pm

I expect Bethesda to pull out the "Harkon is the son of Lamae Beolfag."

Maybe that explains his Dracula-esque appearance.

Hahaha, yeah. That would be interesting.
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renee Duhamel
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:49 am

Elder scrolls don't "do anything" they simply control time.
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Austin England
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:24 am

Elder scrolls don't "do anything" they simply control time.

Controlling time = Doing Anything...

Elder Scrolls had predicted many events... One in Oblivion had removed a curse from the Thieves Guild... One in Skyrim banish Alduin into de' future and sent the Dovahkiin back into time.. Etc.. Elder Scrolls can basicly do anything, no question about it.
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yessenia hermosillo
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:42 pm

To me it seems that you're forcibly trying to find ways to make the story seem lore-breaking. Not to say that your points are not valid though, but I'd think commoners would naturally fear a demon-steed riding vampire. Perhaps some more religious faction (like the Vigilants) would try to hunt you down. Of course the AI of Skyrim is not that advanced to create dynamic responses from NPCs regarding your choices and actions.

There is btw also Barbas, a daedric being that could exist on Tamriel long periods of time, so a summoned horse would not be an impossibility.

There's a difference between forcing and emphasising a point to make people aware. At first glance a lot of what is shown in Dawnguard's trailer is inaccurate.
Seeming as most of the content (including the 'flaming zombie horse') came from GameJam's bethesda game reel or their creative week, I'm not really surprised.
You don't take a lot of lore in mind when you are creating content that is pleasing to what you always wanted in Skyrim, as the GameJam reel was shown as.

On Barbas: a conscience to a daedric prince trapped within a possessed dog does not count. That is another exception, likely to have occured during a loophole.
I'd put my bets on the Umbriel crisis depicted in the books "The Infernal City" or "Lord of Souls" to be the event which caused Barbas to be spirit wrecked on nirn.
Such happenings had even occured before by the enchantment of a daedric soul onto a particular item, like in the book 'Feyfolken.' Maybe this occured with Barbas?

I.E. Clavicus Vile got sick of him, gave his soul to a worshipper, they enchanted his soul onto an item, they lost the item, Barbas escaped into the landscape of Skyrim.
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Patrick Gordon
 
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Post » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:07 pm

(on elder scrolls)

No. They can Undo something and they can do something before it happens. They can also postpone something. Other than telling the past and future they don't do anything else
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Matt Bee
 
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