So I guess all those speeches he gave about how wonderful the Empire is were just a clever smokescreen. *rolls eyes*

He never actually gave any speeches o.o I haven't found anyone mentioning of him giving pro-empire speeches in the game ever, you might be thinking of his father....

Ah yes we have a Orcish shock trooper on our side now

Torygg is dead before the game starts so we couldn't have heard him giving the speeches. It is one fo the residents of Solitude that mentions them, after claiming he wasn't even that good of a King. It is the wife of the smith that works for the Imperials, Baelund or something like that. The propriator of Bits and Pieces.

Yea...but the thing is Torygg agreed with Ulfric and wanted an independent skyrim in fact Torygg looked up to Ulfric and was inspired by Ulfric's speeches of freeing skyrim of the empire.

I know. I was so disappointed that you weren't able to try and mediate an actual truce and ceasefire for the Civil War and be able to have an impact on who becomes the new High King/Queen of Skyrim.

For me, I tend to go for the Empire, and here are the reasons why:

1. At Helgen, I accidentally followed Hadvar into the keep because I was panicking and trying to get away from Alduin. Hadvar really painted the Empire in a different light, even when I saw the dark underbelly of it, and showed me there were good people in it fighting to protect something. His uncle also gave me a speech that made me like the Empire more.

2. The first two holds I went to were Whiterun and Solitude, and I became close to both Jarls on a personal level. Siding with Ulfric means betraying my friends, and that feels like selling my soul. I also ventured to High Hrothgar, and have huge respect for the Greybeards, who I think Ulfric betrayed, further painting him in a negative light.

3. The whole situation in Windhelm makes me doubt Ulfric's ruling acumen. There's racial tension, mistreatment of workers, and a serial killer roaming the streets at night, all of which Ulfric does nothing to fix. Sure, you can say it's because he's concentrating on winning his war, but after Skyrim's free he plans on fighting the Thalmor, which means further neglecting his people.

4. I don't like the Stormcloak Jarls. Most are either corrupt or incompetent, and will make for ineffectual rulers. This, coupled with Ulfric ignoring the home front to focus on war means the people of Skyrim will suffer more.

5. There's part of me that just distrusts Ulfric. I know it probably came from the things outlined in point 2, but it's worth repeating. I see all of his moves as manipulative and treacherous, and I seriously doubt he's going to make Skyrim a better place.

This isn't to say I think the Empire is wonderful. I don't. But the people ruling Skyrim that are on the Imperial side seem to be better rulers than their Stormcloak counterparts (mostly), so while the Imperials may be leeching off of Skyrim at least the people have (largely) better rulers looking after their needs.

We know he respected Ulfric for it, but Sybile Stentor says that he would not do it, at least without having Ulfric ask him direclty to do so, because Torygg meant it benefitted Skyrim to remain a part of the Empire rather than secceed. And we only know that he might have listened to Ulfric.

Might I point out that even one of the stormcloak Jarls just doesn't care anymore about anything anymore and doesn't try to make his hold any better, he just dwells in his misery and mead and lets not forget that the owner of the shipping company thats competing with the EEC hired pirates to stop EEC shipments from entering windhelm and possibly Morrowind thus making it near impossible for trade to enter into Windhelm unless its shatter-shield which is kinda stupid and bad, especially since shatter-shield isn't as big as the EEC and can't rake in as much money and clients.

the civil war is lackluster and not very well drawn out, so neither.

I support the Empire. Nord blood built it, sustained it and my Nord characters find the "True Nord" propaganda spewed forth by the Stormcloaks to be immensely insulting. I can sympathize with the Stormcloak cause, but not while Ulfric is at the head of such a cause. Ulfric showed what kind of person he was during the Markath incident, the kind of person that shouldn't be anywhere near the throne. The milk drinker insult is also laughable, because the Stormcloak side is riddled with the very definition of milk drinkers. Dawnstar's Jarl is a feeble old fool, Winterhold's Jarl doesn't even care all that much, Riften's Jarl is more supportive toward the cause than Ulfric. Then you have people like Thonor Silverblood who I doubt even gives a damn either way, provided the coin keeps flowing. Vignar Grey-mane will use his position to settle a petty vendetta against the Battleborns.. yup, that's the future the Stormcloaks are fighting for.

The Empire may have tried to part my head, but the Stormcloaks are just as much at fault for the PC being there as they are. The captured Stormcloaks could have easily seen that both the PC and Nokir were absolved of being associated with them, but didn't. Instead, we get Ralof, "We're all brothers and sisters in binds now". Hey Ralof, I hope that dragon sends you to Sovengarde! As far as the Empire is concerned, blame lay with that particular captain. Hadvar probably would have let us go, as we had no business being there. Taking that one example and generalising the Empire with it is as bad as using Rolf(sp?) to suggest the Stormcloaks are all racist (they aren't).

Yes, the Empire has been caught with its pants down in the past. I won't deny that, I don't think anyone can. I'm not sure what they could have done with regards to Valenwood and Elsewyre though. Valenwood was lost to a political coup and Elsewyre manipulated into joining the Dominion. The only response available to the Empire then (as I see it) is to declare war on the Dominion. Were they ready for it? Perhaps not, given the instability the Empire suffered.

Morrowind. What more could the Empire have done there? In the wake of the Red Mountain eruption, the Argonians appear to have Blitzkreig'd the province. Perhaps by the time the Empire knew what was going on, providing aid and relocation was all they could do. They could and probably should have done more though, it's tough to say when we know next-to-nothing about the Imperial response (or at least, I don't).

The White-gold Concordat. Why can people not grasp that the Empire needed to sign that peace treaty? They had absolutely no fight left. Factor in that the war had raged on for several years IN THE IMPERIAL PROVINCE no less. The surviving legions were at less than half strength after the Battle of the Red Ring. They may have pushed back the Aldmeri Dominion but that's all they could muster.

And as far as the Blades go, I agree with their disbanding, but not necessarily being thrown to the wolves. The Blades were the eyes and ears of the Emperor in the provinces and they failed spectacularly in their duties. if they had been doing their jobs properly, the events of Valenwood and Elsewyre might have been prevented. At the very least, if they were doing their jobs properly, the Empire wouldn't have been caught with their pants down at the start of the Great War. The Blades didn't see it coming and as the Emperor's eyes and ears, they should have. The element of surprise is why the Aldmeri Dominion was able to enjoy the success it had and without it, the WGC would never have been signed.

I favor the stormcloaks all the way. The empire is corrupt and dying, and perhaps Ulfric will start a new empire similar to Tiber Septim creating the first. A new empire should be back to the old ways, with an emperor who can protect himself unlike Emperor Titus Mede II.

Store owner of Bits and Pieces. Also the fact that he never actually came around to seceding.

Stormcloaks as I've said again and again in many of these threads.

Have you seen him on the show? He looks like a mad man.

Uhhh I just checked....the speeches could've been anti-empire...especially since she considered it rambling...she literally said "Between you and me? He wasn't even a good king. All of those rambling speeches about the Empire this, and the Empire that" it could kinda be taken as if he was saying anti-empire things as well.

I wouldn't consider anything those store owners said to be evidence even if it was against the empire. They are just really terrible to people and elves in general.

Wow.. Seriously. Does this debate still need to exist?

Legion. Even though the Legion annoys me sometimes, and I want them the hell out of Black Marsh. They're honestly the best option at the moment.
The Nords are a bunch of knuckle dragging fools, not fit to rule themselves. Ya know maybe I should support the cloaks anyway. Let the Aldmeri Dominion take over Skyrim.


Milk is awesome, way better than that crap you call "mead".

I'm going to clear a few things up here.

The Nords aren't completely based on vikings, but the key to their culture is. The vikings were called smelly because the British used perfumes (and didn't actually bathe that often at all!) but the Danes (see: Vikings) bathed in rivers and never used perfumes. The vikings were a cleaner people than the British, so your smelly comment is laughable.

Secondly, Ulfric isn't once mentioned as an ally. He's mentioned as a dormant asset. This is because they manipulated him into starting the civil war because he's seen first hand how terrible the Thalmor are. Ulfric doesn't work with the Elves. The dossier even says a Stormcloak victory is to be avoided.

So was Sybille wrong when she says Torygg believed that Skyrim needed the empire so that's why he wasn't seceding?

That's true about Vikings, they were pretty vain actually. But the innkeepers do complain about Stormcloaks not bathing and busting up the place.

Stormcloaks.

Whitegold Concordate goes too far and the Empire signing something in surrender which was basically the same terms that started the war make no sense.
Hammerfell proved that the Dominion can be stopped dead if you fight it on your own terms, something I suspect adhering to the Imperial Military Doctrine doesn't allow.
In a sense the Empire is rotting from the inside out anyhow, it becomes the duty of the people to save themselves if they expect any sort of future.
There are already roaving Thalmor Death Squads that the Empire allowed to roam around, not something they should allow for as it violates any Sovereignty the Empire has left.
Furthermore, evidenced in the story is the fact that the Thalmor do NOT want the Nords to break away from the Empire, this implies that the Dominion fears an independent Skyrim as it likely cannot be kept under thumb like Cyrodiil.
The Empire, is a stagnating beast that is only living on borrowed time at the current rate, if Skyrim doesn't secede then when the Dominion comes again for the Second Great War (and there is no doubt it will) then staying to the Imperial way of doing things, will spell the end for all races of free men outside of Hammerfell.

Yay for communism? Thats pretty much what I took from that...and she was a redguard and many elves are more honest then some Nords, not all elves are lie shouting demons that want humanity to die out.


She also stated that Torygg was inspired by Ulfric and what she also said that if Ulfric just asked him to directly stand up Torygg would've joined him, was killing the kid really the right reason? The only reason he did it was because he needed a symbol, also the only reason he was seen as that symbol was because of his father which really isn't fair, to prove that the empire was weak which also ended up working against him as well because it just made him look like a kingkiller and a usurper, two things that get negative views in the empire and always have.


But it could also mean they fear a unified empire too as for Cyrodiil being kept under the thumb many people have shown that the empire drags its feet at the WGC and the death squads don't leave skyrim if you beat the civil war for the stormcloaks.

Also kinda funny how you have the symbol for the Legion as your avatar

I'm an argonian right now so I kinda have to go with the empire....... unless I want to fight for a nord supremacist.

Red or blue? That is what it really comes down to.

Id rather be Imperial than Stormcloak. I just could not handle taking *spoiler alert* Jarl Balgruuf out of power and putting that idiot Vignar Gray Mane in his place. I don't like Olfrid at all, but Vignar just sits around whiterun and the companions complaining about the empire surrenduring years later. Plus most Stormcloak supporting Jarls are bigger milk drinkers. Skald just says "The dragons will leave as soon as we push the Empire out of Skyrim" which is a stupid statement. Jarl Laila isn't horrible, but her downfall is the fact that she is prone to manipulation. The Jarl in Winterhold just runs away every time a dragon attack Winterhold when im there. The guards have more courage than he does. When a dragon attacks *spoiler alert* dragonsreach, Balgruuf is right there, in front of the dragon. People talk about Nord racism, but the Argonians hatred for Dark Elves is much worse. The argonians in Windhelm would slaughter every dunmer in the grey quarter if they had the chance.