Lesser Race 12: Continuation of the Subgradient #8 : V - Skyrim

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:36 am

I don't think I'd classify the Argonians as weak, seeing their actions of the 4th Era and the Oblivion Crisis. If I were to put any one race as the weakest, it would be the Orsimer. They are great individual warriors, but that has not been enough through Tamriels history. They simply haven't been able to build themselves to be a powerful force to contend with the other races.

This

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:40 am

I don't think I'd classify the Argonians as weak, seeing their actions of the 4th Era and the Oblivion Crisis. If I were to put any one race as the weakest, it would be the Orsimer. They are great individual warriors, but that has not been enough through Tamriels history. They simply haven't been able to build themselves to be a powerful force to contend with the other races.

The actions of the 4th era and the Oblivion crisis was not the Argonians on their own, it was the Hist.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:29 am

I don't think I'd classify the Argonians as weak, seeing their actions of the 4th Era and the Oblivion Crisis. If I were to put any one race as the weakest, it would be the Orsimer. They are great individual warriors, but that has not been enough through Tamriels history. They simply haven't been able to build themselves to be a powerful force to contend with the other races.

These threads have never been about the races' current situations, or their political skills. They've been more about the races' abilities overall. If you put 100 of race A up against 100 of race B in different scenarios and terrains, who would win?

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:07 am

Ah, they've changed the poll from the last thread's mightiest. My mistake.

I still disagree, the guy that managed to conquer all the provinces (Tiber Septim) wasn't even an Imperial, he was a Nord. And what they didn't take. Through politics, they used the Numidium to rotflstomp.

We can just agree to disagree on that. And I agree that they are probably not capable of challenging the other races on their own. However, politics is just another form of power as far as I am concerned.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:38 pm

These threads have never been about the races' current situations, or their political skills. They've been more about the races' abilities overall. If you put 100 of race A up against 100 of race B in different scenarios and terrains, who would win?

I was told by Pompous that it was about what race has done best for Tamriel overall, through accomplishments and so forth. Not physical combat.

I am not talking about the Septim Empire alone, but also the Reman Empire. And who the Emperor where isn't that important because it was still the Cyrodillics who ended up as the ruling race overall, with their culture being exported to other nations along with their government.

This.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:35 am

These threads have never been about the races' current situations, or their political skills. They've been more about the races' abilities overall. If you put 100 of race A against 100 of race B, in different scenarios and terrains, who would win?

That is the problem though, as I mentioned in my first post about this. You cannot measure what race is supperior on equal grounds in Tamriel because there is no equal ground, and the races seems fairly equally matched in different areas. It would just be a hypotetical without any real meaning. Their actual accomplishment speaks much louder.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:32 pm

That is the problem though, as I mentioned in my first post about this. You cannot measure what race is supperior on equal grounds in Tamriel because there is no equal ground, and the races seems fairly equally matched in different areas. It would just be a hypotetical without any real meaning. Their actual accomplishment speaks much louder.

The way I see it, Cyrodill is the equal ground. Water, sands, trees, enough for every race to have a hypothetical advantage. I suppose we will really see this play out in TES:O

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:13 am

The way I see it, Cyrodill is the equal ground. Water, sands, trees, enough for every race to have a hypothetical advantage. I suppose we will really see this play out in TES:O

"Equal grounds" doesn't refer to the environment alone. The reason the Orcs, for example, have become such a weak global force is because they are not united and, at least appear to, have far too few individuals within their race(population).

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:00 am

That is the problem though, as I mentioned in my first post about this. You cannot measure what race is supperior on equal grounds in Tamriel because there is no equal ground, and the races seems fairly equally matched in different areas. It would just be a hypotetical without any real meaning. Their actual accomplishment speaks much louder.

That's not really a fair way to measure it either though. What of the Orcs, who started in an awful position. Orcs aren't a weak people, but they have never been in a position to rival any of the others.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:23 pm

You see, that is just being ignorant. You are going by stereotypes alone, while the Bosmer are required by their religion to eat their own deceased.

However, I suppose this doesn't make them a lesser race by default. However, they are weaker beings, their main strength being archery and stealth. They are not good swordsmen like the Nords, nor are they good mages like the Altmer. They are similar to the Khajiit in their stealth skills (makes sense, as the Bosmer and Khajiit were once the same race), but they lack the versatility that the Khajiit have. There are 17 breeds of Khajiit, ranging from Alfiq (housecats who are as powerful of mages as the Altmer are) to the Pahmar-raht (basically a gigantic intelligent tiger)

How is being a cannibal a weakness when it's not done by necessity?

Also, you seem to be assuming that archery is weaker than melee or magic. A lot of people might disagree.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:39 am

"Equal grounds" doesn't refer to the environment alone. The reason the Orcs, for example, have become such a weak global force is because they are not united and, at least appear to, have far too few individuals within their race(population).

But you see, that is a weakness of the Orcs, similar to the Argonians. They are not united, and therefore are weaker as a race

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:17 am

How is being a cannibal a weakness when it's not done by necessity?

It is a weakness, since it is required by their laws. It is necessity, and it is illegal to leave a dead Bosmer on the ground uneaten.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:21 pm

I was told by Pompous that it was about what race has done best for Tamriel overall, through accomplishments and so forth. Not physical combat.
This.

Depends on when you're here. We have discussed this in very many different way.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:54 am

But you see, that is a weakness of the Orcs, similar to the Argonians. They are not united, and therefore are weaker as a race

Which is my point. As a race the Orcs have become a weak force, just like the Nords became a strong one. The Argonians proved they can be quite powerful when the Hist demands it, but I didn't include them in the races I think the overall strongest because they are very limited outside of Black Marsh.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:48 am

That's not really a fair way to measure it either though. What of the Orcs, who started in an awful position. Orcs aren't a weak people, but they have never been in a position to rival any of the others.

They held Hammerfell from what I remember and the Ra'gada took it from them by force. I agree that the Orcs are not weak, but the Ra'Gada proved to be stronger and thus crippled the Orcish people.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:38 am

Which is my point. As a race the Orcs have become a weak force, just like the Nords became a strong one. The Argonians proved they can be quite powerful when the Hist demands it, but I didn't include them in the races I think the overall strongest because they are very limited outside of Black Marsh.

All we've seen from the Argonions it a mindless, Hist-induced blitzkrieg. It's deadly as an initial strike, but after the enemy regroups, they can easily be defeated through superior tactics.
Evern the weakened Dunmer further north were able to fight them off, since they had more time to prepare.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:29 pm

All we've seen from the Argonions it a mindless, Hist-induced blitzkrieg. It's deadly as an initial strike, but after the enemy regroups, they can easily be defeated through superior tactics.
Evern the weakened Dunmer further north were able to fight them off, since they had more time to prepare.

The Hist itself may be powerful, but without it, the Argonians are virtually nothing.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:34 am

The Hist itself may be powerful, but without it, the Argonians are virtually nothing.

Ageed. Even with it, I don't think they are superior to the other races (save MAYBE the Bosmer).

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:39 pm

They held Hammerfell from what I remember and the Ra'gada took it from them by force. I agree that the Orcs are not weak, but the Ra'Gada proved to be stronger and thus crippled the Orcish people.

True, but to be fair, The Redguards are easily in the top 3 when it comes to individual power. And when they invade an area, the HoonDing assists them. Had they come by sea to invade any other province, (save Morrowind, Alinor, or Skyrim) the results probably would've been the same.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:17 pm

Ageed. Even with it, I don't think they are superior to the other races (save MAYBE the Bosmer).

Personally I think the Argonians are weaker than the Bosmer, but not by much

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:46 pm

I'm not understanding why people are voting Argonians as the superior race. I can see redguards, nords, dunmer, and altmer. Maybe even imperial since they were successful in ruling most of tamriel for so long, although they owe that to the help of the nords. But argonians?

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:03 am

Personally I think the Argonians are weaker than the Bosmer, but not by much

It's close, to be sure. If you compare "uber weapons" they get the Hist and the Wild Hunt. I would say that these are also two of the lesser ubers, especially when compared to the Tribunal, thu'um, or sword singing.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:59 am

True, but to be fair, The Redguards are easily in the top 3 when it comes to individual power. And when they invade an area, the HoonDing assists them. Had they come by sea to invade any other province, (save Morrowind, Alinor, or Skyrim) the results probably would've been the same.

Which is why those four are among the races I listed as among the most powerful overal, and the other races they could have invaded is not. None of the other races seem to be powerful enough overal to challenge these four(only use them in the case of the Imperials) unless some catastrophe has happened recently.

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:14 am

I'm not understanding why people are voting Argonians as the superior race. I can see redguards, nords, dunmer, and altmer. Maybe even imperial since they were successful in ruling most of tamriel for so long, although they owe that to the help of the nords. But argonians?

People tend to vote for their favorites instead of using logic. The Argonions literally have three accomplishments under their belt:
1. They willingly joined the Empire, not worth counting considering most provinces did.
2. They successfully attacked Oblivion. The only thing that is impressive, but they had no free will in this.
3. They invaded Morrowind... And were eventually pushed back. Did I mention Morrowind was in ruins at the time?

» Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:56 pm

Which is why those four are among the races I listed as among the most powerful overal, and the other races they could have invaded is not. None of the other races seem to be powerful enough overal to challenge these four(only use them in the case of the Imperials) unless some catastrophe has happened recently.

This is true. These 4 have always been the most powerful (until the Red Year). But it could also be noted that the members of each of these races are also the most dangerous individually. Altmer are powerful mages, Nords are the strongest humans and capable fighters+ they can shout, Redguards are the most skilled fighters in Tamriel and can sword sing, and Dunmer are all-round power houses, being skilled mages, swordsman, and rouges.