1. It wasn't a surprise attack. Ulfric rode his horse into Solitude, likely as though he were admiring the scenery. He didn't sneak up behind Torygg. He challenged him and the High King accepted, eliminating any "surprise" on his part.
2. High King Torygg was a puppet of the Empire. It didn't matter who he would have sided with -- that isn't the point. Ulfric killed him to send a message to not only the Empire, but to all of Skyrim -- Skyrim is for the Nords, and the High King was not a "true" Nord. He did not act, in Ulfric's eyes, in the interests of Skyrim or those who call it home. He acted for the Empire and had a weak constitution, making him unfit to rule.

The Stormcloaks aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. Sure they're bigoted, but they aren't racist.
If they were truly racist they wouldn't give you chance to join their faction, it'd just be *you* and *them*.
No, what the leaders do is send you out to your death as a gambling joke. Not racism, as they do this to any character.

The Stormcloaks true belief is in strength, unity and independance. Which the argonians and dunmer show to lack in some ways.
So is it racism to be hard on a community so as to better it's peoples? to make them like yourself? to learn via the hard way?

What the Stormcloaks are doing is a trial, a test, for those communities to overcome and become truly nordic like themselves.
And those few nords who work against this, those within Windhelm, do not deserve to be called brethren, for they are not nords.
They do not honour there neighbours, test them and bring them into their fold. All they are is husks of blindingly bitter hatred.

Joliettejake07, do not side with Ulfric Stormcloak, side with Ulfric Stormcloak's dream: of a truly free Skyrim. Don't let it return to a mere tool of the empire.

The Argonians fricken Stormed Oblivion and Scared the Daedra Soo much they closed the Oblivion Gates during the Oblivion crisis.
And The nords dont "Honour" There neighbours, I dont consider driving Falmer underground very "honourable"(Though the Falmer did kinda get what was comeing)

Oh don't tell me; they're "testing" the forsworn

The argonians do not show much independance. They were and are still communally led by the Hist.
The Hist in-fact called most of the argonians back to Black Marsh just before the Oblivion Crisis, they reshaped them with their sap to be stronger, wiser, more agile.
So thus to be better equipped when the portals would be opened and to be able to tackle the daedra right into the heart of the Deadlands themselves.

The falmer slaughtered the nords due to them withholding the Eye of Magnus within Saarthal. In retaliation to this, the nords drove the falmer out after returning.

now here's an idea I'd love... within reason.

Last I checked, Torygg was likely elected by the Jarls, just like any other High King. If some Jarls think the Imperial ideas of "next in line" are a valid means of choosing a replacement ruler, as is having an Imperial supporter, then their business. Heck, if they feel that challenging someone much weaker than you are to a duel then killing them to make a point is murder (reminds me of how the Dunmer felt that it was basically murder for Archmaster Venim to kill someone in a due), then that's their business.

That said, I'm not saying that Ulfric or his supporters should have to feel that way, I'm just explaining that it's not some horrible betrayal of Skyrim to feel the way the Imperial-supporting Jarls do. It's important to see where both sides are coming from.

It's complicated. The Jarls likely supported Torygg, and the Empire, before the WGC was signed. Since he didn't openly oppose the ban of Talos worship, many of the Jarls could think that their trust was misplaced and that their decision to support both Torygg and the Empire was a bad one -- one that needed remedied.

Torygg was the High King of Skyrim. If the Jarls who support the Empire supported him, they should view his word as law -- they appointed and cotinued to support him, despite his action. His word being his acceptance to duel Ulfric, declaring the act to be completely legal. So no, it isn't their business. Their business was appointing Torygg to the throne. It was Torygg's business to accept the duel and thereby pardon either combatant of any future crime stemming from the duel itself (in this case, murder).

But it was murder by the Empire's law. Of course, the whole civil war seems to revolve around the people of Skyrim disagreeing on whether or not Imperial law belongs in Skyrim.

It's a shame because with his speechcraft skills, Ulfric could've probably bribe/taunted Torygg into attacking him and claimed self defense.

I chuckled at this.

Hmmm, read closer, I never said I joined him. And does ulfric REALLY care for me if I join the stormcloaks? Or am I being used so he can become high king like he already tried to do?

Seems to me ulfric is a power hungry racist. Banned the argonians add khajiits, the dunmer live in the gray quarter.

As far as I'm concerned, ulfric couldnt CARE LESS who helps him out, as long as he ends up king.

I believe the Khajit arent allowed in cities because Elswyr is part of the Aldmeri Dominion .How do you think a caravan of Bretons would be recieved in Summerset?

The Argonians live outside the walls because themselves and the Dumner are having issues atm and the Dumner were there first.

The dumner are stuck in the grey quarter because they seem to expect somebody else to solve their problems for them.Mer up grab a sword and take back Morrowind if Skyrim is so inhospitable.From what I understand the Hist lickers arent colonizing what they took they seem to just be standing around.

First of all, Hammerfell DID NOT "drive out" the Thalmor. They fought them to a stalemate and eventually negotiated an end to open hostilities. With that in mind, do you think the Thalmor threw everything they had into the invasion of Hammerfell? Yes or no? If yes, why would such a move make any kind of sense? Remember that if everything they have is tied up in Hammerfell then NOTHING is preventing the Legion from marching along the coast, preventing a retreat, and then falling into the back of the Thalmor.

If no, would you not agree that if what they did invest was enough for a stalemate then "everything they have" would probably have achieved more?

Without Skyrim, the Empire is almost certain to fall and once the Empire falls, the Thalmor lose the big adversary that ties up many of their troops. Then they can focus 100% on taking out the rest of the lands of man. The issue isn't what happens next year or next decade but what will almost certainly happen within the next few centuries. That's the time scale the Thalmor operate on.

What does condemn every Nord in Skyrim fighting for "indepdence" is the fact that they're playing into the Thalmor game of divide and conquer. Skyrim won't be stronger for not being allied with Cyrodiil and High Rock and the Empire won't be stronger for being reduced to two provinces that don't share a land border. In fact both the Empire and Skyrim will be weakened while nothing negative has happened to the Thalmor. When their strength remain unchanged while their enemies grow weaker, they are effectively strengthened.

In other words, Ulfric is fighting the wrong enemy and his doing so is of immense benefit to the real enemy. It is, in my opinion, the duty of every free Tamrielic citizen of good conscience to fight evil and oppression as best they can, and currently evil and oppression is strongly represented by the Thalmor. You don't fight the Thalmor by making them stronger relative to their enemies, you fight them by subverting their plots and killing their agents, whenever you can. They want a civil war so the anti-Thalmor thing to do is to not give them one. They want division between the lands of men so the anti-Thalmor thing to do is to stand more united than ever.

They can't win unless they can divide men to fight against men. They. Can't. Win. So the anti-Thalmor thing is to do what will certainly deny them victory and NOT START WARS BETWEEN THE LANDS OF MEN. It really is that simple. In his failing to understand this, Ulfric has led countless strong Nords astray, who are in turn fighting the Thalmor's battle for them. His treachery against all that is righteous is quite impressive, and the only thing that speaks in his defense is that he doesn't do all this knowingly. Even so, he's simply a pawn. If Torygg was an Imperial puppet then the same can definitely be said about Ulfric's relationship with the Thalmor. Sure, he hates them and doesn't willingly aid them, but he's being played and used all the same.

Without the Empire to stand in their way, who exactly do you see emerging victorious in time? Do you think Hammerfell could suddenly go on the offensive and invade Summerset Isle, when the Empire of old could not? It's not about sudden and quick conquests. That's not how the Thalmor operate anyway. It's about very slow and very well hidden power plays that take place over so many years that most people don't notice it. Once the Thalmor control Cyrodiil, they have a huge land area in mainland Tamriel as well as a totally safe home base on Summerset Isle. Look on a map and see just how vulnerable this would leave Hammerfell. Not within the first few years of Cyrodiil falling, of course. That would be hasty. The Thalmor would take their time and completely break Cyrodiil first, and only then, when uprisings are impossible because of decimation after decimation, they'd start going offensive.

It would take decades or even centuries, but it would be a train of death rolling on a railroad of doom and stopping it would be nearly impossible. Surely it would take at least a TES protagonist to reverse that sort of momentum.

Both sides were not left devastated. Summerset Isle is perfectly untouched and has been for centuries. Cyrodiil was ravaged by war, with the Imperial City taking a huge beating. What did happen to the Thalmor is that they lost their entire invasion army. That's a big blow but it's not a show-stopper. Summerset Isle is still safe, and Valenwood is still a strongly defended Thalmor province. What this means is that if the war had continued, the Empire would have a strong army but no enemy that said army could pounce on. Instead they'd be taking one needle-[censored] at a time from small Thalmor raiding forces, never being able to mount an offense to actually win the war, and during this time the war fatigue would steadily increase until it reaches critical mass and people surrender just to end the fighting.

The Empire can't let Skyrim go. Look on a map. Letting go of Skyrim would split the Empire in half all by itself, and it would also signal weakness to every baron or lord out there who'd like his own little kingdom. Next High Rock would quit and the Thalmor divide and conquer ploy would still bear fruit. An independent Skyrim is about the worst situation you can imagine for the Empire.

As for a "union" between Hammerfell, Skyrim, and the Empire, please do consider the status before the Great War. Hammerfell, Skyrim, Cyrodiil, and High Rock *was* the Empire. It wasn't enough to mount of offensive then, back when they were one nation, united under Talos. Surely a loose alliance isn't going to be enough either. No, the way I see it, the Empire stands or falls with Skyrim and Tamriel stands or falls with the Empire. For all its faults, and they are many, the Empire is a vastly preferable alternative to the Thalmor, and that is the real decision one has to make when deciding allegiance in the Skyrim civil war.

everything about this is correct, but:

who says the loss of the Thalmor invasion force meant the loss of the bulk of their forces? The simple fact is the Dominion held EVERY advantage. They had accurate and detailed intelligence on the Empire and the condition of its provinces and army. The Imperial Legions have been utterly decimated. The recapture of the Imperial City was in every sense of the phrase a Pyrrhic Victory.

so, the legions are badly weakened, the imperial provinces are ravaged, the imperial city is sacked, chances are thousands of civillians have been killed. Rough spot for the Empire. Meanwhile, let's look at the Aldmeri Dominion. What`s that, you say? We can't? We have no intelligence on the Dominion at this time? Precisely. This is EXACTLY why the position of Tidus Mede II is so difficult: if they choose to continue the war, they MAY catch the Dominion in a weakened state and prevail. It would be costly. However, military logic indicates that a commander would NEVER commit every last man to an offensive because a loss would be so fatal. This can be applied to both the Empire AND the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire can't commit every man to an offensive, and chances are the Dominion DIDN'T commit every man to their offensive in Cyrodill. What this means is that there's a very good chance the Dominion has significant reserve forces in Valenwood and Summerset Isle. It's also possible these forces are superior to the decimated legions. What this means is the Empire has a chance at another Pyrrhic victory, or an absolutely fatal defeat. Take your pick. Both are terrible outcomes. The Empire is basically down to a lose-lose scenario.


no, as the Khajit themselves, and Ysolda, tell the player, the Khajit are not allowed in the cities of Skyrim because the Nords see Khajit as pickpockets and drug dealers. Now, to be fair, they also say the nords don't trust them, which COULD also be tied into their membership of the Aldmeri Dominion as well as the racial stereotypes.

They do not show much independance from the Hist, but they certainly have independance from everyone else.

The relationship between the Argonians and the Hist is one of deep mutual benefit. No one is truly independant, and with that in mind, the Hist are some of the best allies the Argonians, or anyone, could ever possibly have.

Surely the 'real enemy' in skyrim are the Thalmor?
My aim is do all I can to [censored] with them

Perhaps it is right that Skyrim should gain independence, but while the Thalmor are still at large, it is the wrong time for it.

If the majority of Skyrim still sought independence once the Thalmor are gone and Talos worship happily returns, then I feel there's a much greater chance the empire would be willing to allow it to happen. In the face of inevitable hostilities between the AD, though, it's a bad time.

But, that itself is also a question: WOULD Skyrim still seek independence if Talos worship was reinstated and the Thalmor removed as a threat?

A good question. If the banning of Talos worship is indeed the only problem nords have with the Empire, then they'd be far better off waiting it out. The White Gold Concordat is not a permanent agreement for a lasting peace. It is, at best, a temporary agreement which both sides use to buy some time before the next war. When that next war breaks out, which it inevitably will, the Imperials will renounce the concordat and Talos worship will likely be allowed once again.

What good is is having most of the Imperial army guarding the border if they let the Thalmor cross it anyway? The whole "you need the empire to stop the Thalmor" thing is a myth. The Empire already lets them kidnap, torture, and murder people even suspected of worshiping Talos. Do the Missing In Action quest and go to Northwatch Keep, there's your proof right there. Tulius allows the Thalmor there very own private prison where they can act as they wish in the name of the Dominion. If you free a prisoner of the Thalmor, Imperial guards will hack them to death if they're nearby. So again, the Imperials already gave the Thalmor free reign in Skyrim. They're already useless.


It's going to be hell for the Stormcloaks to beat the Thalmor (especially if you're not included and especially if the Red Guard don't lend aid), but at least they'll be fighting. Not sub-serving them and acting as their left wing.

Empire all the way ..

today i posted question for President Obama about The Stormcloak Rebellion .
http://www.youtube.com/whitehouse
and if the US were behind freeing Ulfric to create conflict in the province of Skyrim .

The Empire has little choice at the present time but to appease the Thalmor. It is not yet ready for another war. I have no doubt that the Stormcloaks would stand up to the Thalmor, but logically it's quite plain that a united Empire would stand a much better chance than a crumbling Cyrodiil and a Skyrim recovering from a civil war.

I think the big problem skyrim had with the empire was in their view, the empire let the elves dictate their law. And no self respecting nord would allow an elf to dictate his life. Had the empire won or not accepted the WGC. Skyrim would've fought with them, even if it had been to the bitter end.

If the empire and an independant skyrim survive and successfully defeat the dominion, it's a tough call. They may think the empire has no divine claim anymore. They only endorsed Tiber because he withstood the full force of the greybeards shouting(Without getting blasted to ash) and then lead them to great victories. If the Dovahkiin advocates unity in that case, there's a good chance they'd listen and come together. Not a sure fire thing though.

Skyrim for the Nords is if u pay attention to what peopel are saying "Skyrim for the Nord's values". Nords are not racist, they hate/distrust everyone until that milkdrinker has proven to them that person's worth and honor. Yes skyrimhas been part of the Empire for a gooood bit, but also that empire has done very little as in changing or making the population "different", the Empire pretty much had a "hands off" approach to Skyrim which changed when the Empire started to enforce or at least backup the Thalmors attempts to persecute the peopels freedom fo worship. And please dont say that the Thalmor didnt really do anything until Ulfric made a huge deal about it because if u listen to what peopel say and read, ull find out that soem time after the treaty was signed, that the Empire hired Ulfric to retake the city in exchange for PROTECTION and a place to worship Talos, Thalmor got wind and the Empire yet again threw the Nords under the bus to save themselves from goign inot an early war with the thalmor so they renigged on an agreement/promise and Ulfric was setn to jail for 10 years then broke out, ended up becoming jarl of windhelm and then went on to challenge the King........sooooo the Thalmor had basically been persecuting people or why else would Ulfric need protection to worship him and since he had been captured and thrown to prison for 10 years, this had been going on for soem time.

Also yes Ulfric sides with the nords quite a bit BECAUSE his army is made up of mostly Nords seeing how the Dunmer dont believe they should be fighting or helping out because this is a war for Skyrim and they dont feel its their home, morrowind is and the khajits pretty much revere the thalmor hence hwyt hey aint allowed into the towns no matter which side u choose, the argonians pretty much DESPISE the dunmer more than any other race due to the slavery and there had been lots of known accounts of argonians ambushing slaughterin Dunmer because of the past....basically Ulfric is dign ALOT for the dunmer/elves by keeping the argonians seperated from them. Ulfric is honoring his promise of protection "soemthing the Empire is severeally lacking in" to the peopel fo his army so that is why he goes outta hsi way to help THOSE THAT ARE HELPING HIM and not really doign anything at the moment to those who are being unknown quaties int he war, why would u waste resourses for people who are not for you or who could pretty much become the enemy?

Pretty mcuh the Empire is falling apart with the death of its leader, lack of allys to throw under the bus for its own safety, and putting on the mantle of suppresion themselves for thier own enemys.....and then when siding with the Empire u would have the country of Skyrim break out in fuedal war having Jarls against jarls, whereas u can throw off the chokehold of the Empire and lessing the mortality by only having the war being 1 on 1 instead of everyone against everyone.