Recovery from war always takes some time. Politics is one thing but the real issue is repopulation. War wipes out generations of people, which in turn means there are fewer people fulfilling jobs which bring the province/country profit. In addition, it means there are fewer troops to send into the next war should that war occur soon. This is why the Thalmor are in favour of Ulfric's actions and would be happy to see the war last for many years to come.

Skyrim's victory is terrible for High Rock and Cryodiil as it isolates both and takes a good portion of potential supporters from their grasp. The Thalmor want to see the races of men divided as taking on the might of one province is much easier than taking on the might of multiple provinces. Unfortunately for the nords, Summerset Isle is out of reach as it'd mean seeking passage through Hammerfell and the nords are mistrustful of the redguard armies. Valenwood and Elsweyr would require going through a resentful Cyrodiil.

And yes, Ulfric and Ulfric's supporters do not trust or support the Empire in any way. Ulfric himself states the Empire should fight until its dead. All of his followers believe that Skyrim is for the nords, not the refugee dark elves or anyone else. Regardless of his own views, he's allowed racism to fester in his city and shows no interest in uniting and leading those people. Why on Nirn should any dark elf swear themselves to a man who does no seem to care about them at all? The dunmer are a potential ally considering the Thalmor view of them but Ulfric doesn't capitalise on that.


The option for replacing Laila is... Then again, he's happy with the Silver-Bloods and so long as Maven's making moneyshe'll be content xDD

I'm amazed we haven't hit post limit yet.

Actaully Ulfric and Skyrim wouldnt have to go thru hammerfell because Nords are remarkable naval fighters as well, pretty much renown as the best, AND Ulfric as alrdy stated that they will go after the Thalmorf they have to carve thru the empire to get them...that sounds like pretty much even the empire will have an ally when i comes to the thalmor, at least just for the fighting. Yes the Empire should figth til its dead in the eyes of Ulfric BECAUSE that is how a Nord fights, u fight well and u die well..thats ti in battle, dosent really mind who wins/loses as long as u gave them hell and went out swinging. Also as far the Dunmer, if u actually read its the dunmer's fault for the separation of them. When they were invited to come over and stay in skyrim, they came over and was very disappointed thinking that they were gonna receive a handout and that they would have a place where people were tolerate/respectful of Morrwowinds values/ways, but got really upset whenthe citizens didnt really care about their "old" homeland values and stuff, just wanted the Dunmer to respect the ways of Skyrim, the dunmer were really put offby the lack of morrowind tradition in skyrim "big surprise" so they started forming thier own pubs and shops fashioned after thier old homeland and followed the culture of thier old homeland and pretty much disrecarded the traditions and ways of the very land they live. The dunmer themselves created that rift.

Also pretty much when the war is over, the cities are for the most part already getting back to work, and u also cant forget that this is the Nord race, where fistfights and battles are a FAVORED pasttime for the general population. Nowhere does Ulfric state that the empire should completely die, only that it shoulda went down fighting with all its might during the great war, but then again thats EVERY nords point of view. TBH i cannot find any evidence that a skyrim/cryodill/high rock empire would be able to do better what the old empire woulda been like in the old war. Now u get the individual countrys as shakey alliences that are united in a common enemy that they all hate....yes i could see it happening. Also the Empir eis waiting for itself to gather up more strength to fight, well cryodill can do that while the Skyrim nords are doign guerilla warfare on the Thalmor's HOME ISLAND, remind the high elves that nords are considered the BEST naval warfare race.

Well having an avatar of the man who founded the empire telling you the empire is old and dying and it's probably time for something new is a bit clear.

That only matters if you believe in destiny or something. I've always been one who wanted to change the future. I guess it applies to this game too. I don't want my path dictated by some npc dialogue from a game dating as far back as Morrowind. That's a buzzkill, man. I'm playing now with the character I want, and don't want to sit around trying to look into the crystal ball of "lore" and try to deduce my character that way. What's the ooint of even playing anything then. Perhaps I should quit and read the cliffnotes 10 years from now.

Or maybe I should do what I want and have fun at the moment.

Besides, if there's one thing we learn about the dragonborn, it's that his/her presence negates one "destiny" set by Alduin. The world need not end, just because the world-eater is back. This goes without mentioning the involvement of Akatosh. If Akatosh is the god of time, then destiny ultimately is in his hands. Things can change. Time itself can become confused, distorted, reconfigured.

Oh ye of little faith

The Aldmeri Dominion also has Time on their side. He's called Auriel.


No. Anyone who thinks the Empire or Skyrim is going to take the islands has another thing coming. Summerset has, by far, the best navy. Tiber Septim couldn't defeat it, and used the Numidium since the elves would murder his fleet.

Beware Old Mary at water.

The nords are not regarded as the superlative naval fighters in modern Tamriel. The Thalmor managed to gain a foothold in Summerset Isle due to their tactics in dealing with pirate reavers from Hammerfell and Valenwood. Now they control Valenwood and Hammerfell is independent. In addition, swinging around High Rock to deal with the Thalmor is a stupid, stupid plan. The Thalmor would have advanced warning, it would require a great sacrifice of domestic defenses and any ships they took would need to carry more food and supplies than any vessel departing from Summerset, Valenwood, or even Elsweyr.

Regardless of who wins, the Stormcloak rebellion costs many, many nordic men and women their lives. The survivors might indeed return to their hometowns but there are those who will be brought back in pieces, others who will never return in any form. This is the price of war. There is no way the people of Skyrim would ally with the people who culled their sons and daughters even if they did have any respect for non-nordic values... which many don't. Likewise, Cryodiil, High Rock and the nords who served in the Imperial army would feel betrayed and would also feel the same sense of human loss. To say nothing of the issue over who would lead a united human front. Only nords would take orders from Ulfric and there are fewer nords now than there were before the rebellion.

When it comes to the dunmer, Ulfric is asking them to forsake their gods, their culture, their loyalties and everything that makes them dunmer in order to gain respect. Ulfric fully believes that Skyrim is for the nords. He is intolerant of opposing cultures, apathetic towards those which aren't antagonistic but the dunmer are denizens of Skyrim and he refuses to deal with them as dunmer. Outside of Windhelm, many of the dunmer players can meet are settling well despite not having the same beliefs as those around them. There is a problem in Windhelm, a problem Ulfric continually ignores and that his allies are keen to amplify.



What's 'canon' is a different issue altogether. Since we get a choice of who can win the Stormcloak rebellion, it's safe to say that no one wins in the end. Something has to come along and crush or aid both armies otherwise half the playerbase would have their playthroughs rendered invalid. As a result, I personally believe that the Empire falls apart and think it's likely that the Thalmor pick up the pieces.

There are Dunmer settling well in Windhelm, too. And Ulfric asking them to give up their gods and traditions? No, the opposite is true. He's honoring a centuries-long tradition of "you go your way, we go ours." Some people choose to interpret that cynically, however, and think it should be "we go our way, you help us do so for nothing in return."

Agreed, I think it more likely that the Thalmor would invade Skyrim by sea.

Alduin didn't come back to eat the world though. The two bells of the all-makers goat have yet to ring. They made it pretty clear in the MQ that he was going the world domination route instead and was acting before his allotted time. It wasn't destined he'd be successful at that.

They didn't really 'crush' the legion in Valenwood, they killed off opponets and raised to power Thalmor supporters. There was no real crushing as much as Thalmor pawns succeding with their Thalmor mastars with the legion in no position after the Oblivion crisis to really stop them. Even then the Empire funded rebels to fight against them. I don't think you really know the Raga very well at all, and the pocket guide names them the undisputed masters of gurilla warfare. If it came to a war of attrician, the Raga would win in the long run with higher population rates, better hit and run and insurgency where as the Altmer are at a disadvantage both in population and reproduction. Also, the Dominion initially did hit Hammerfell in full force and only turned on Cyrodiil when they saw it was vulnurable enough for a full fledged invasion.

The Thalmor are played up to be much more than they really are.


They were both assassinated by the Potentaes.

I think they'd take out the isolated, but strategically placed High Rock before dealing with the orther provinces.

as far as the dunmer to explain it all, "when in rome, do as the romans do". Basically going into ANOTHER country and expecting not to uphold or respect THIER traditions the people who LAND u live in now....


Look im all for the septim empire...but that empire died long ago, 200 years ago. The empire no longer has the unigueness and powers which it was feared. There are no more dragonblood emporers, no more dragonflame, no more heirs from tiber septim. This empires actions has caused it to crumble by throwing allys under the wheel for its won safety. They abandoned Hammerfell to the Thalmor during the war, they abandoned the Blades who forsaw the coming and threat of the Thalmor, they abandoned and restricted the peopel of skyrim its worship and also its protection...hell the whole bases of the rebellion is not that they cant worship talos, its that the Empire has grown to weak to even protect the people its over, case in point when Ulfric takes the city back inexchange with the Empire for a place to worship talos and PROTECTION from the thalmor to do so. Tha thalmor found out and the Empire BETRAYED Ulfric and ratted him out to save thier own skins from having to go to war with thr Thalmor to soon. AND this is when Skyrim was still fully behind the Empire, so please tell me HOW an Empire that still has Skyrim be a BETTER way for an independent Skyrim? How can it be any worse? The only thing i can think of is that the Empire has one less ally to throw away to save itself...

Also about Nords going against the elves in their own homeland, there are countless storys of a band of Nords sailign to the isles and pretty much demolishing the country....theres a reason why high Elves are fearful and uneasy about Nords. Ill have to look up the Tiber Septim thing because i thought there was a variable that was unique to that situation, not that they were superior but that something had happened..i dunno ill have to look it up on that.

Don't you think the dunmer would have more respect for nordic values if the nords actually helped them, rather than threatened to assault them in their beds at night? The dunmer could prove to be a valuable ally against the Thalmor, but the Stormcloaks are too ignorant, too proud and too headstrong to allow dunmer to rebuild their culture or to help them in that endeavour. Elsewhere in Skyrim there are dunmer who are contentedly starting new lives who aren't being forced to give up their devotion to Azura, the Houses or in one case, the Morag Tong in order to gain respect.

The Empire didn't like the WGC any more than the Stormcloaks did. They accepted it because they believed there was no other choice. They did sacrifice Hammerfell, and perhaps that was needless but the Empire is still the most accepting and muticultural institution in Tamriel. It still cares about Skyrim, else it wouldn't fight for it. I agree that the Empire is weaker than it has been in the past but that does not mean it cannot or should not recover or that its values aren't worth anything. A united front has a great deal of military advantages but slicing the Empire down to Cryodiil makes each province that much easier to contend with.

Ulfric would defend Skyrim until every nord was lying dead on the battlefield. He would not give the same for Cyrodiil, High Rock or even Hammerfell. He would not and does not extend the hand of friendship to the dunmer or argonians, who would prove valuable allies. However 'good' he is for Skyrim... he's twice as good for the Thalmor.

That is not true. Galmar asked me when I joined why a non-nord would want to join the stormcloaks. I told him not all residents of Skyrim are nord, and he said "fair enough, but are you willing to die for your home". Clearly Ulfrics second in command was fine with non-nords living in Skyrim and was well ready to allow non-nords into the stormcloaks (and this was before I proved my worth). Also, earlier on it was stated that part of the distrust of dark elves comes from the fact that they would not join the stormcloaks. That implies they were invited.

I don't get where this idea that Windhelm is trying to force the Dunmer to give up their culture comes from. To me it appears the exact opposite, that the Grey Quarter was a way to let the Dunmer live on their own apart from the Nords, and was as much their choice as the Nords who let them settle there (asking no compensation or fealty in return). In retrospect that compromise has not worked out well because it deepened divisions and resentment, unlike in Riften where Dunmer are more assimilated.

The days of the Nords gladly sending troops off to bleed for Cyrodiil are over regardless of who wins the civil war, IMO. There are still going to be deep resentments, especially if the empire continues to allow the Thalmor to oppress Talos worshippers in Skyrim. That's why cutting Skyrim loose is strategically better, IMO. People do fight more fiercely for their homes than for some abstract ideal or fragile alliance.

And what hand is the empire extending to Black Marsh against the Thalmor, or to Morrowind against the Argonians?

Skyrim will help the empire when they feel that Cyrodiil can be trusted. Its not racism, its politics. The emperor has proven to Skyrim and many other provinces that he cannot be trusted to keep and protect his allies. Why do you think that there are only 2 provinces left (skyrim and hammerfell) out of the original 8? If you are looking for a united empire you need to look in the past because it does not exist anymore.

The decree explicitly states they self-govern

No doubt that Ulfric is a racist pig. Just read about what he did to the Forsworn (and the Nords who befriended them) 20 years prior to the games begining.

I have played a Nord that supported the Stormcloaks. Honestly following the stormcloak on to Riverwood and then hearing them talk could make you a believer in their cause. Add to that the random talk that soldiers make in their camps. But when you see the big picture it would seem that everyone would be better off with the Stormcloaks gone.

ps - I will admit that storming Whiterun was the best part of the civil war campaigns though.

There's no evidence of that save an imperial propaganda piece written to paint Ulfric as a villain and Forsworn as saintly liberators written long after the incident by someone who wasn't even there. The imperial Jarl of the hold even contradicts the story.

I agree with this in part. The resentments will run deep for some time to come. However, don't make the assumption that every nord in Skyrim would be loyal to Ulfric if he won. There would be resentments there too and without the support of High Rock and Cyrodiil, Skyrim would be left with far fewer reinforcement options in the event of a Thalmor attack. People fight for survival far more fiercely than they fight for their homes and when it comes to the Thalmor, it is a fight for survival, and the very survival of the world.

I do agree that someone needs to reach out to the argonians and the refugee dunmer. Heck, even the Akaviri cultures might take umbrage at the Thalmor's aim to destroy the physical world.

Unless you do No One Escapes Cidhna Mine and speak to one of the prisoners there about what happened to his daughter. Certainly, The Bear of Markath may or may not have been an exagerration but it had at least some elements of truth to it.

The nords did reach out, and the Dunmer clearly stated they did not want to help. the reason they are being harassed by citizens is becasue they are in the middle of a war and the Dunmer are being nuetrals. So the general population dosent know what to expect of them, since they clearly said they were not for them BUT the population dosent know IF thye will join the enemy or be nuetral to the enemys as well, its the unknown factor they are bringing that unfortuantly brings thier miscomfort. The citizens do have a right to be afraid because sine they are not claiming ANY ties, they do not knwo what is what with them, its not black and white.

The old empire is superior to the independent skyrim, BUT this empire today is not the old empire. Its broken and has made to many mistakes and is asking everyone else to pay for thier mistakes. Besides the Empire isnt as "strong" as ur lead to believe, look at the whoel hammerfell incident, a general disobeyed the empire and left 500 invalids to continue the fighting and hammerfell got a stalemate and thier independence.

but also ask urself this, IF High Rock was the one rebelling would u still feel the same way seeing how the empire would only be smaller and not broke in half? Most of the naysayers on here are only going off the fact that Skyrim is smack dead in the empire, if high rock wasnt involved i highly doubt that most of the people on here would be pushing for the Empire, which after Independent Skyrim, i see High rock going for thier own indpendence anyway, or at least seaching an ally with hammerfell..scratch that IF they went independent i see them getting a ally with skyrim so basically the empire get smaller and can actually focus on its own lands and the other countrys rise up and make allys and make themselves stronger and the mepire gets smaller and a newer/stronger empire comes in and takes it place.

that was the Jarl not Ulfric about the daughter

That was the Jarl. If you talk to him, he gives a specific age his daughter would have been. She was born after Ulfric was already in prison for the markarth incident.