absolutely. Good lord, the parallels between the WGC 30 year interlude and the period in between the two world wars is striking. Skyrim and the indignant Stormcloaks remind me increasingly of the German citizens who felt they had lost the war to backdoor politics and underhanded dealings.

Hell, the entire peace of the White-Gold Concordat reminds me quite a bit of the Treaty of Versailles, of which French Field Marshal Ferdinand Foch declared "This isn't a peace. it's an armistice for 20 years."

Is there actually a scrap of evidence that says Ulfric/the Stormcloaks are racist? I can't see it.

Who were the Nords paying reparations to? Has Skyrim's economy collapsed? I don't see it.

The constant association of Ulfric to Hitler seems to me mostly based on an ethnic association, which is both odd (Germans =/ Norse) and insulting. Why not compare him to any number of Germanic chieftains who rebelled against the presumption of Rome to rule over them? That seems a much more direct parallel and one not as fraught.

Retaking Morrowind is not an option for the dunmer. Their culture, their cities and the very land was destroyed following the collapse of the Tribunal and the erruption of Red Mountain. Many of their most prolific guilds, including the Morag Tong, disbanded before the Argonians even thought to invade. They have no influence as Imperials or as denizens of Skyrim and no where to declare their own. No one seems to help them and those that can, do help themselves but they do face an awful lot of opposition when this would be the perfect time so secure the support of what's left of the Houses and the race as a whole.

I guess you could make a karmic argument that they got what they deserved considering dunmer attitudes in Morrowind seemed... rather nationalistic (to say nothing of the slave trade). Now they're getting a taste of their own medicine, but I don't think that 'more prejudice' is the answer to 'past prejudice'.

Many Nords, Ulfric included, do display racist attitudes. Even the 'neutral' Jarl of Whiterun refuses to deal at all with Hammerfell soldiers searching for a fugitive. The soldiers in question are not part of the Empire or the Dominion. The Imperials are the only ones who seem generally moderate in this respect and their Nordic supporters tend to be amongst the most accepting nords you meet.

On a larger scale, ceding Skyrim isolates High Rock and makes it far, far harder to defend and co-ordinate attacks involving Imperial provinces. An independent Skyrim with Ulfric as High King would not jump in to defend High Rock (or Hammerfell) from the Thalmor unless Skyrim itself was directly threatened too. This is absolutely fantastic news for the Thalmor, who desire little more than the division of the races of men and would be able to pick them off one by one rather than face a revitalised Empire of any sort. It may indeed be true that the Empire and the Thalmor have ambassadors who can roam throughout the provinces but it is also a certainty that the Thalmor will attack the Empire again at some point and the worst thing for Skyrim, independent or not, would be for the Thalmor to conquer Cyrodiil and High Rock.

you misunderstand me. I'm not at all relating Ulfric to Hitler. I'm not relating any nords to Nazis. I'm merely relating the indignant Nords to the indignant Germans because the full implications of continuing the wars seems to not be understood.

The Nords themselves aren't paying reparations so much as all of the Empire appears to be for the damages suffered. Taxation and whatnot. The Empire itself would be a bizzare combination of Germany and France, in that it had to sign a treaty heavily stacked against it AND it was the location of the entire war. The prime similarities lie in this feature: the White-Gold Concordat and the Treaty of Versailles are stacked against the Empire and Germany respectively. The Germans had to pay the costs of the entire war, cede the Alsace-Lorraine region to France, lose East Prussia and Poland to the newly returning nation of Poland, demilitarize its population and not build an army over 100,000, and admit they started the war and lost the war fair and square. The Empire has to cede southern Hammerfell, ban Talos worship, and allow Thalmor agents free access and influence in its provinces. Both treaties are highly unbalanced, particularly in the eyes of the losing parties.

Next, we have the time lapse. In our world, just under 21 years passed from the end of the war to the start of the next. Enough for a new generation of young men to fill the nations of Europe. In Tamriel, 30 years have passed, giving enough time for a generation and perhaps another half generation to mature into men and women eligable for military service. New generations built on old hostilities and the hatreds of their advlts usually means a rise in tension and vastly greater chance of renewed hostilities.

Those were the similarities i was referring to.

Race didn't factor into that at all. It was because they were stirring up trouble. Iirc the guard refers to an 'incident' which led to them being banned from the city.
They'd jump on any opportunity to go to war against the Thalmor. They aren't isolationists, and they weren't against the war. Quite the opposite.

Hell, if the Thalmor were to renew hostilities they'd probably march in whether they were invited or not. That'd be more likely to cause issues than them sitting back and doing nothing. Ulfric's most sinister line comes after the Stormcloaks win the war I feel, when he says something to the effect that they'll cut their way through the Empire to get to the Thalmor if necessary.

And if the Thalmor launched a new invasion of Cyrodiil once Skyrim has succesfully seceded from the Empire, do you think Ulfric will rush to the aid of the same Imperials he just kicked out of his homeland? Unlikely. This is grim indeed, considering the Thalmor were only expelled from the Imperial City in the last war with reinforcements from Skyrim.

Balgruuf was against the war and for his people.

I admit, there were other factors in the decision to ban those particular Redguards from entering the city, but there's definitely a certain suspicion cast upon Redguards due to their race. And swords. Their darn curved swords.


Exactly. Ulfric would not defend Hammerfell or High Rock. The Stormcloaks would simply march right through either to face their enemies. I hate to be another one to bring in a real-like anology, but the Red Army and the Nazi's Eastern Front tore Poland apart in order to rip into one another. Ulfric despises the Thalmor, but he has no love for anything that isn't nord. At best, he's apathetic to their plights, at worst he's an active oppressor. YMMV.

As Glorious stated above, Ulfric would be very unlikely to aid Cyrodiil in the next Thalmor invasion. Even if he wanted to, a number of his allies would see Cyrodiil's suffering as divine justice. Likewise, I doubt the Stormcloaks would let Imperial soldiers march through Skyrim to reinforce High Rock.

tionists
Except they are isolationists
Most Stormcloak supporters if you actually bother to speak to them want religious freedom, the empire out and peace
They have no interest in a war against the Aldmeri Dominion, they are tired off fighting the Empires wars for them

The Stormcloaks aren't isolationists. If you listen to Ulfric's conversation, you see he tried to ask the Bretons of High Rock for help against the Empire but never received it. In addition, he says after winning the Civil War that "Skyrim will lead all of Tamriel against the Thalmor." That means that he at least intends to have some sort of alliance with the other human nations against the Thalmor.

Yes, whether the Imperials want it or not. Ulfric is very vocal about renewing the war with the Thalmor. Moreoever, while Ulfric dislikes the Empire for what he feels it's become, he deeply respects what it was. The civil war has many causes, but a dislike for Cyrodiil or the other human nations is not among them.

Regardless of which side you choose, Skyrim playing a mayor part in the oncoming war is pretty much assured.

If the moot declares Ulfric High King, it only matters what Ulfric decides. And Ulfric definitely wants to resume combat with the Thalmor.


As for that cyrodiil comparison. Do keep in mind that an invasion force would be temporarily weakened by such a move and easy pickings for a nord warband. Nonetheless I don't think they'd leave the empire to hang unless they really didn't have a decent amount forces ready by then.

Ulfric has been asking for support against the Empire from High Rock (conversations with Ulfric and Galmar show this). They aren't send aid, but that is proof enough that Ulfric is willing to ally other provinces. High Rock will likely be forced to leave without a border to Cyrodiil, and Hammerfell and Skyrim would be their only potential allies.

I'm not going to get into this argument again, but I have a question: yes, Tamriel must stand united against the Thalmor. But why under an Empire? Half of Skyrim wouldn't hate them if they left and simply stayed allied to Skyrim. It's no longer part of the Empire, so the Concordat doesn't apply to them. They still get food and supplies from the Empire.

It's imperialism. It wants to control lands, not be "united."

The biggest problem I have with the Stormcloaks is the Silver-Bloods. God, I hate them and that entire city. I don't like Ulfric himself too much either, and he is a racist bastard (I don't understand why Bethesda didn't allow you to question him about this). I think he really believes Skyrim should be free, but at the same time he is a power hungry bastard.

I hate most of the Stormcloak Jarls, actually. Except Vignar.

How? He doesn't do a single thing that identifies him as racist.

He doesn't have a problem with other races in Windhelm - there are successful Altmer businessmen who've just arrived from the Summerset Isle, there is a Dunmeri bard, and a number of Dunmer work for prominent families. It seems that anyone can do well in Windhelm if they're willing to work, and the Dunmer aren't. Even an outwardly hostile Dunmer is allowed to own a pub. The Stormcloaks allow elves to join, and their Jarls have elven advisors, they allow elves and other races to take up prominent positions as businessmen and craftsmen. What happens to the elves in Stormcloak territory? Nothing. Look at Riften, for example: there are elves and Argonians running meaderies, pubs, and market stalls - and one serves as the Jarl's steward.

This 'the Stormcloaks are racist' thing is a figment of the imagination.

According to one of the Argonian dock workers, it was Ulfric who said that Argonians can't even live inside the walls. He outright declared that they have to live in even more povery than the Dunmer (and things have gotten worse since Ulfric took charge.)

funny. I absolutely hate Vignar. Winey little [censored].

and of course imperialism is part of the issue, but there's more to it than that.

It's mostly because he's one of my Companion friends. His comments about the Battle-Born do get annoying, but I otherwise like him.

He's no Balgruuf, but at least he isn't like the Silver-Bloods.

The Argonians aren't treated much worse in Windhelm than they are in the rest of the province. The Khajiit can't live inside any walls. They'd also end up sharing the same quarter as the Dunmer. That's not a good idea.


No evidence of a deliberate policy, however. There are plenty of reasons why things could have got worse since Ulfric took over, and very few of them revolve around the man himself.

perhaps.

as for your imperialism claim, remember that political, national, and ethnic factors all have massive affects on warfare. The minute you decentralize military authority and spread it among different national commanders (for example, no way in hell would Stormcloak forces EVER accept being under the command of a legion commander), you open the door to a whole bigger set of problems. nords feel they're being discriminated against on the battlefield, they do something rash insteadof following the planned strategy. Dunmer feel like they're being used as fodder, they withdraw from the battle. Imperials feel their not being respected by the nords or orcs. They fight less vigourously against the enemy out of spite.

no, the most effective militaries are those united under singular supreme command, made up of diverse legions with racial intermingling, joining battle side by side. A Stormcloak army will have different strategic goals than an Alik'r army, and both will have different goals than an imperial legion, even if they're all fighting on the same cyrodillic battlefield. The most effective military forces in history have been under one supreme commander, and even then fighting cohesion breaks down eventually unless they can all claim to be part of the same national or imperial organization.

Tdroid in most ways I am being honest. I wish there was a decision for us to make as to step in as being a mediator for both sides. For both of them to shut-up and listen to each other and to play nice.

To be fair though, with the state the Empire is in politically and socially, there's no guarantee that forcing all these people into the military structure of the legion and placing them under the authority of a Cyrodiilic bureaucracy is any better.
Fighting as one doesn't magically make you more effective. It requires the proper leadership and structure, and racial issues don't disappear the moment they wear the same uniform either.

Riften has a nice Argonian population. Everyone lives equally under Maven Black-Briar.

True.

of course. But, then it removes alot of other issues that can plague the combat effectiveness of the army.

under the bureaucracy, it becomse much clearer what needs to be replaced in order to fight effectively, and that's usually the commander or higher authorities themselves, an act that the Emperor (who is indeed not a bad leader so much as his entire reign was set in a time of strife beyond his own control) can change.

Now as speaking of as a proud Southern here in the states. The US Civil War wasn't fought over slavery it is about states rights and freedom of way life. Now not every southern family could nor have slaves. There were also white slaves as well. The south did offer to have congress "pay" for the slaves to let them go and have them be free. The congress turned them down. The north didn't want the free black persay because it would take away the jobs. The only reason there was a total black army in the north because it allowed them to be "free". Also don't forget that Lincoln invaded his own country as well.

let's just avoid this entirely.