Tired of the "quest hand-holding" complaint : V - Skyrim

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:54 am

Really? REALLY? Have you actually played this [censored] game?

Here's an example. Was talking to one of the new members of the College of Winterhold, the Nord. Told me he made a bad trade with Enthir and wanted my help. I talked to Enthir and he said he'll fix the situation if I go fetch him his staff. All he said was that he sold it to the wrong person - he did not tell me who this person was, or where I could find him. I figured it might be the Dark Elf in the Jarl's house, because that guy asked me to get him a staff to help him keep up appearances, and I said no - so maybe he went looking somewhere else. But nope, wasn't him. So I went back to the College and talked to every [censored] NPC. Nobody had any relevant dialogue options. So I went to the few places in the city of Winterhold that had people in them and talked to every [censored] NPC. Again, nobody had any relevant dialogue options. At this point I was absolutely exasperated, so I decided to turn on the quest marker. Turns out the guy was half-way across the map, North of Falkreath. Apparently, I supposed to [censored] divine his location...

This is only one example of many. I can give you so many more examples where you're basically [censored] if you don't use the marker.

I don't see a problem with that. Eventually, someday, you would end up North of Falkreath and find the location of this person. Yes, it may take you months of game-play, but eventually you would find the right place. That just makes it all the more epic.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:00 pm

One hand-holds me with a marker, the other hand-holds me with a whole bunch of text detailing me exactly where I need to go.

Real men make notes on their own scratch paper if they need to remember something.

You're missing the [censored] point. At least most of the time in Morrowind there was an "organic" way to figure out where to go by interacting with the NPCs, by figuring out who to ask, and asking the right questions. This added a layer of fun to questing.

In Skyrim this layer is missing. Instead, now we magically know where we have to go. The "organic" aspect of figuring this out has been stripped from the game.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:05 am

I'd recommend you guys to check out this thread, where we try to revive the http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1285820-wip-mojo-morrowind-original-journal-overhaul-needs-you/.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:18 am

We cant' even take down directions in Skyrim because there are none. How can I write something down when it's given to me?

Also, since this is an RPG and since I'm role playing the character I'm role playing the fact that the character wrote down those directions.

It's called IMMERSION.

Write down as much as you can, and then start looking for it. Start somewhere most logical and go from there. If you don't find it, put it to the side and continue with quests you CAN do. Eventually, if you're determined enough, you'll find what you're seeking.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:06 pm

Nobody said you couldn't, i'm just pointing out the difference between inability and self-made restriction. So when you use the word "can't" you sound like an idiot because really what you mean is you CHOSE NOT to. End of the day, Bethesda gave you the tools to play how you choose to. A warrior that decides to never use spells and literally walks across these lands would die of old age in his journey to complete all the quests. If you're really trying to RP a warrior then likely you'd start the game, follow the main quest, maybe join sides with the imperials or stormcloaks, likely help out the companions guild and call it a day. This would vastly truncate your experience to that of a simple warrior...but that isn't the case. The case is you're a DragonBorn prophesized to herald a new era in the lands. You are capable of nearly every and anything the world has to offer and even start with a mana pool and points in spell-based skills.

So, are you really role-playing or simply handicapping your experience to make an argument?

You obviouslly have never role played before because if you can't understand my point than I can't explain any better.

Just because I'm DragonBorn doesn't mean my character can or will use spells.

Please read up on the what Role Playing reallly is and then hopefully you'll understand my point.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:33 am

I don't see a problem with that. Eventually, someday, you would end up North of Falkreath and find the location of this person. Yes, it may take you months of game-play, but eventually you would find the right place. That just makes it all the more epic.

What if the quest was urgent?! Like, a world-ending thing was about to happen, and you had to go retrieve something but you had no directions. It's absolutely silly to wander around and hope to happen upon the right thing at some point in the future. It's immersion breaking. If you can't understand this simple point then there is nothing for us to talk about.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:36 am

One hand-holds me with a marker, the other hand-holds me with a whole bunch of text detailing me exactly where I need to go.

Real men make notes on their own scratch paper if they need to remember something.

I can tell you've never played Morrowind just from the way you're talking. Morrowind had a completely blank-slate map until you explored it, then it would reveal what was there. There was never an "Open up the map, and look at the quest marker." option. There was never a "Oops, I passed the cave! Good thing the compass is telling me to turn around" option. You had a paper map and you lived and died by that damn thing. Directions were never that exact, I was making up an example off the top of my head. Say you had a quest where you had to murder someone? You may be given the name of the town they were in. You would never be given an arrow above their head indicating the mark. If a cave was off the beaten path? Get ready to start following directions like "Walk 30 paces past the three white trees, go left passed the dwemmer statue, a hop, skip, and a jump across the nearby stream and the cave is somewhere in the valley below."

A three year old could have played Oblivion and Skyrim. Morrowind was damn hard without your paper map, your wits, and some patience.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:30 am

You obviously don't know now to use the journal, much like me. I'm sure you are talking about the Misc. Quests. Well, to activate those pointers you have to click the Misc Quest tab and then click the actual quest you want to complete and the marker will magically appear.

I have yet to find a quest that didn't have a marker. I also have yet to find a quest where I got enough information to complete the quest without the marker.

So your post is the one that is false, not the ones who have very valid complaints about the GPS in Skyrim.

Actually, the treasure map quests don't have markers.

One funny thing related to this very topic, on IGN I read an article the other day talking about what Skyrim did and didn't fix about Oblivion. One of the things the writer complained about in Skyrim was the "pathfinding." He was annoyed that the game would put a quest marker on the map, but didn't define a proper path to reach your destination. He found it odd that you would encounter a lake or cliff or some other obstacle on the way to your quest objective. Apparently the writer of the article thinks this is a problem that needs to be fixed. LOL.

Some think there is too much hand-holding while, apparently, others believe there isn't enough. Just goes to show you that you can't please everyone. For Bethesda, there's simply no way to win.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:11 pm

You're missing the [censored] point. At least most of the time in Morrowind there was an "organic" way to figure out where to go by interacting with the NPCs, by figuring out who to ask, and asking the right questions. This added a layer of fun to questing.

In Skyrim this layer is missing. Instead, now we magically know where we have to go. The "organic" aspect of figuring this out has been stripped from the game.

Again, I find it interesting that those of you who supposedly loved the way Morrowind required you figure things out, can't even read my OP to figure out what I said. I stated and gave several examples of quests that DO require you to figure things out organically.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:36 am

Again, I find it interesting that those of you who supposedly loved the way Morrowind required you figure things out, can't even read my OP to figure out what I said. I stated and gave several examples of quests that DO require you to figure things out organically.

And I can give you MANY MORE examples of quests that leave you without even the slightest clue as to how to figure things out organically.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 11:01 am

I don't see a problem with that. Eventually, someday, you would end up North of Falkreath and find the location of this person. Yes, it may take you months of game-play, but eventually you would find the right place. That just makes it all the more epic.

I don't want to spend months of gameplay trying to figure out where to go. Who would go through all that? that's not epic just really really tedious

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:02 am

And I can give you MANY ~~MORE~~ examples of quests that leave you without even the slightest clue as to how to figure things out organically.

Sure, those are there too (though I think there are MORE non-hand-holding quests). I never said they weren't. What's your point?

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:16 pm

You obviouslly have never role played before because if you can't understand my point than I can't explain any better.

Just because I'm DragonBorn doesn't mean my character can or will use spells.

Please read up on the what Role Playing reallly is and then hopefully you'll understand my point.

Real role-playing is reserved for games that allow for myriad change and infinite possibiltiy, like Dungeons and Dragons or Traveller, or hell even that piece of trash cyber-punk atrocity I used to play but forget the name of...Shadowrun maybe? It doesn't matter. The fact is you're making blanket assumptions about me as a person based around my view of a videogame. You can't truly role-play in a videogame because it's a fixed world with a fixed toolset underneath a fixed scripted storyline. All you can truly do is handicap your character to be perceived in a slightly different light. You can't even really "speak" for yourself in this game, merely select from 3 canned options when prompted. When a cutscene appears your character is forced to do what the game decided you did, even then, it may be outside the spectrum of how you perceive your character.

That is not role-playing.

Table-top games like D&D allow for actual RP in an RPG setting. Maybe you should check that out with some friends, if you haven't already, but don't be so obtuse as to believe Skyrim actually offers an RP scenario, it offers action in an RPG setting, sure...but actual RP? LOL. You're kidding right?

Furthermore, as you can see, I fully grasped your point and have a background in role-playing games. I just feel your point is moot and well, honestly, jaded by idiocy in which it invalidates itself being you CANNOT role-play in a game where you have limited control over your character/persona/visage.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:24 am

I don't want to spend months of gameplay trying to figure out where to go. Who would go through all that? that's not epic just really really tedious

It took me around 2 years to solve a quest in Morrowind once. What's the problem? That's how Morrowind was, so I'd expect Skyrim to be the same. So far, it has surpassed Morrowind in quest quality in nearly every way.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:25 pm

Sure, those are there too. I never said they weren't. What's your point?

Isn't it obvious? You said you were tired of the quest marker complaints. I tried to explain why they these complaints were legitimate (to spell it out: you can't organically complete many quests - even some in the MQ and faction questlines - without the quest markers).

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:42 am

So what if it doesn't give you any directions? You have a map.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:54 pm

GaelicVigil has obviously never played Morrowind, or any game that doesn't utilize a "figure-it-out-yourself" system for that matter. You're never going to sway the opinion of someone who started playing with Oblivion.

(Here's the part where he says he's been around since Arena)

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 8:17 am

So what if it doesn't give you any directions? You have a map.

Holy [censored] [censored]. Have you read any of the posts in this thread?

You know, each time one of these threads pops up, there are loads of people who ask the same question or simply miss the point completely. It really makes me "want to facepalm", to use a tired internet phrase. If this is in any way indicative of the reading comprehension of the average ES player nowadays, then it's no wonder we have quest markers now.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 10:29 pm

So what if it doesn't give you any directions? You have a map.

Please leave. It's for your own good.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 6:34 am

It took me around 2 years to solve a quest in Morrowind once. What's the problem? That's how Morrowind was, so I'd expect Skyrim to be the same. So far, it has surpassed Morrowind in quest quality in nearly every way.

I wouldn't spend 2 years on a quest that sounds crazy to me. I used the strategy guide for most of Morrowind before I got bored with the main quest line

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:25 pm

Real role-playing is reserved for games that allow for myriad change and infinite possibiltiy, like Dungeons and Dragons or Traveller, or hell even that piece of trash cyber-punk atrocity I used to play but forget the name of...Shadowrun maybe? It doesn't matter. The fact is you're making blanket assumptions about me as a person based around my view of a videogame. You can't truly role-play in a videogame because it's a fixed world with a fixed toolset underneath a fixed scripted storyline. All you can truly do is handicap your character to be perceived in a slightly different light. You can't even really "speak" for yourself in this game, merely select from 3 canned options when prompted. When a cutscene appears your character is forced to do what the game decided you did, even then, it may be outside the spectrum of how you perceive your character.

That is not role-playing.

Table-top games like D&D allow for actual RP in an RPG setting. Maybe you should check that out with some friends, if you haven't already, but don't be so obtuse as to believe Skyrim actually offers an RP scenario, it offers action in an RPG setting, sure...but actual RP? LOL. You're kidding right?

TES is the closest thing to Role Playing in a video game that we have. If I want to Role Play a warrior that doesn't use magic, than yes I'm handicapping my character. I'm doing it because it's the kind of character I want to play.

Isnt' this the game that you can play and be what you want? Isnt' that what Todd Howard said? How can I be a character that doesn't use spells when I'm forced to either use a 2011 GPS or a spell that I have decicded my character doesn't use?

I can't be what I want and play how I want, yet Todd says I can do it.

» Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:44 pm

GaelicVigil has obviously never played Morrowind, or any game that doesn't utilize a "figure-it-out-yourself" system for that matter. You're never going to sway the opinion of someone who started playing with Oblivion.

(Here's the part where he says he's been around since Arena)

Just like you're never gonna' sway the opinion of someone who started with Morrowind, or Daggerfall, or Arena. Look, all of us are guilty of having our perceptions heavily influenced by the game we started with. Can't we still all be Elder Scrolls fans?

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:08 am

Holy [censored] [censored]. Have you read any of the posts in this thread?

You know, each time one of these threads pops up, there are loads of people who ask the same question or simply miss the point completely. It really makes me "want to facepalm", to use a tired internet phrase. If this is in any way indicative of the reading comprehension of the average ES player nowadays, then it's no wonder we have quest markers now.

THANK YOU. It's refreshing to see others who know that there are problems and what those problems are and actually want those problems fixed.

You are right though, those people are the target audience now. Damned frustrating to say the least.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:59 am

TES is the closest thing to Role Playing in a video game that we have. If I want to Role Play a warrior that doesn't use magic, than yes I'm handicapping my character. I'm doing it because it's the kind of character I want to play.

Isnt' this the game that you can play and be what you want? Isnt' that what Todd Howard said? How can I be a character that doesn't use spells when I'm forced to either use a 2011 GPS or a spell that I have decicded my character doesn't use?

I can't be what I want and play how I want, yet Todd says I can do it.

when has the game ever forced you to use spells? my Warrior character has never used any of the magic spells in a game, haven't even put points into mana.

» Sat Dec 10, 2011 7:25 am

GaelicVigil has obviously never played Morrowind, or any game that doesn't utilize a "figure-it-out-yourself" system for that matter. You're never going to sway the opinion of someone who started playing with Oblivion.

(Here's the part where he says he's been around since Arena)

Don't feed the trolls!