Exactly why are people trying to diss Skyrim as an RPG? It's like making water not wet. So, since skyrim doesn't have stats like: intelligence, wisdom, luck and doesn't let you choose a PREDEFINED class makes it less RPG-like? Skyrim system actually forces you to roleplay. You can't be a master of everything. You have to specialize with perks and create a character class defined by your actions, which sounds like a roleplaying game to me. And Skyrim offers way more freedom than the RPGs people are talking about? What other game (series) lets you totally ignore the main storyline (dragons and civil war) completely and allows you to do whatever you wanted, like hunting game in forests? You can play skyrim in any way, any style you like. If that's not a RPG, I don't know what is.

If your definition of RPG consists of a D&D clone where you pick up your stats in the beginning, are constrained by the class you chose at the very beginning for as long as you play the game, that's a very restrictive game. So, yeah, in a 'traditional' I pick a thief class. So I can't even dabble in a little magic? Wearing heavy armor automagically makes me 'a warrior'? I can't be a magic-using orc that wears heavy armor and steals peoples pants and picks up butterflies in his spare time? If anything, skyrim's system is probably the most flexible and free system of any RPG I've ever played.

A lot of the vitriol shot at Skyrim is just that. People are nostalgic for a certain type of TES experience (Usually the first TES game they played), and were hoping the Next TES game is (Their Favorite TES) II, instead of a whole new game. Then these people cling to valid complaints levied against the game, and use that to further their anger. Any time you see "Streamlinging" and "Dumbing Down" That's a good point to tune out of that person's argument. It simply means "The other game did it like this, I want Skyrim to be (The other Game)II"

That's not to say That Skyrim is perfect or that Other Elder Scrolls games haven't done aspects better. Daggerfall was little more than a custom D&D Ruleset and Map, in terms of the RP possibilities it opened up. Morrowind ushered in a much more guided (And in my opinion compelling) world that defined the character of a province more so than any other game. Oblivion represented the first leap in bringing the "Action RPG" dream (Which existed since Daggerfall, but lol90's tech) to fruition, which was refined to near Perfection in Skyrim, along with distilled elements of the other games strengths, but something was lost in the synthesis that made each game special, but made Skyrim it's own.

Where Skyrim fundamentally and inarguably fails as an RPG, is in a third layer of character definition (Often Laymaned as Morality, but arbitrary Paragon/Renegade/Karma/etc is uncessary). Because of the overall poor writing, Many players are thrown into a specific "Character" Regardless of what they themselves want. The first time this happened in Elder Scrolls history (On such a grand and terrible scale) was The Mages Guild of Oblivion. Forcing players to take a stance on the otherwise-legitimate art of Necromancy in Cyrodiil. Elder Scrolls RPG's are best when they're ambiguous with moral detailings. That's why Political maneuvering was a cornerstone of almost every single faction in Morrowind. It was compelling while not injecting a morality other than the player's own ambition.

TL;DR - Railroading is the enemy of any three-dimensional RPG.

I was going to respond in more broad terms, but Criminal Scum did so sufficiently enough for my tastes, so I will reply on a more specialized basis.


Clearly you haven't played Morrowind (or did, but got frustrated and didn't play it very long). In Morrowind you don't select a 'PREDEFINED' class (though you can), instead you make your own class. You can give it character, and even write a few paragraphs of description for your class that you can come back and read later, or show your friends. In any TES game you can become the Master of everything provided you invest enough time in getting your skills up too 100 each. And frankly, Morrowind offers you more freedom to ignore the main storyline. In Skyrim everyone is telling me about how I'm the chosen one right from the get-go, and while I'm off hunting in the forest like you talked about I get a big obnoxious dragon who swoops down every so often, as if to say 'Lol, I'm gonna troll you until you kill Alduin.'


This is apparently because you haven't played many RPG's, and clearly haven't experienced Morrowind, and probably not Oblivion either.

Your argument falls flat when you compare Skyrim to Morrowind (which was, except the graphics and lackluster combat system, a way better game than Skyrim).

• You're talking about freedom? Morrowind gave you the freedom to actually sever the chain of prophecy and botch the main quest. You could kill anyone in Morrowind. Even a god. And Bethesda even gave you a 'backdoor' to complete the main quest if you did so. In skyrim practically anyone interesting is marked essential and you can't kill them to see how that would affect the game. You can never make yourself unable to complete the main quests through your actions. That's not freedom.
  
• Speaking of actions defining your character: in morrowind, people increasingly recognized you as you completed quests. In skyrim, even if you're the mages guild leader, a guard will make comments like 'so you can use some magic. Am I supposed to be impressed?' Nope, it's the exact opposite of your argument: Skyrim lets you take actions (like becoming the head of a guild), but it does not give weight to those actions. What's the point of defining your character through your actions if there are no reactions?
  
• Speaking of predefined classes: who actually used the predefined classes in Morrowind or Oblivion? Anyone who's experienced made their own class and roleplayed in their own way. Besides, since your character in Skyrim isn't really handicapped in anyway, it offers really uninteresting roleplay options. Remember back in Morrowind or Oblivion where taking the Atronach birthsign meant an interesting compromise? In skyrim, every handicap (like decreased carry weight, decreased resistance to magicka) is temporary. You can't permanently 'damage' your character. I can't play a stupid nord barbarian blessed with the lady sign who bashes peoples skulls in when they don't agree with him. Yeah, I can't even kill anyone I wanted because they're marked 'essential'. Way to force the main quest down peoples throats, Bethesda.
  
• IMO RPG's should have a sense of wonder and reward mechanic. Skyrim does this very poorly. Remember when getting daedric or ordinator armor actually meant something? In Skyrim, daedric armor is merely cosmetic. You can't venture into a really hard dungeon at level 1 and proudly wear that single piece of daedric armor you claimed after a deadly fight. Why? Because the world levels up with you. You can never find daedric armor this way in Skyrim, because at level 1 all NPCs will wear cheap iron armor. Skyrim doesn't reward exploration. The world leveling up with you ensures that every place, even far away from civilization, will contain loot that's tailor-made for your characters level. That kills the immersion. The only place that gave me a sense of wonder and awe in Skyrim was Blackreach. That was new.
  
• And even if you play Skyrim for the main story, it's pretty poor in its execution. Yeah, you're the dragonborn and slayed the world eater. Nobody cares. The 'crisis' in skyrim feels very artificial because people won't even recognize your role in saving Skyrim!

So, applying your own metrics of what you consider a roleplaying game to both Morrowind and Skyrim, it's very evident that Morrowind had actual freedom, actual reward for pursuing different playstyles, and actual recognition of the players actions in game. Skyrim gives the illusion of freedom compared to that. All this streamlining has removed the sense of wonder, sense of reward, and sense of true roleplaying

Well, since we're comparing, I'll throw my own opinions out there:

Morrowind
* It kept me entertained -- not for days, but YEARS. I could boot up the game and go exploring, and find something completely new that I had never seen, even two or three years after launch. The game was VAST, and that is PRECISELY what I wanted from my games.

* It was alien. Yeah, horses, rabbits, and wolves are great and all, but they're common place and they don't leave me desiring to learn more. I know what a cow is and I know what's for.. whereas, a silt strider had a mystery around it, a lore all its own -- and that lore had to be injected into the world, which made it all the more richer. The kwama, the guar, the netch, and yes, even the cliff racer... all of these things had a well-explained place in the world that wasn't totally outlandish.

* Beast Legs and claws. Yes, I know it's petty, but if you're going to have animal races, please give them more animal traits than fur/scales and a tail, and please make them make sense. Noticed that the argonians in Morrowind had sixual dimorphism that went beyond "bewbs", and the khajiit males had manes? You call me obsessed with furries and I call you obsessed with anime. And that whole thing about "But the way they'd walk! It would be annoying!" Modern animation debunks that.

* More realistic faction interactions. You can't just go around pledging allegiance to all the Houses all willy-nilly, or join both temples. If you did something dumb, there were legitimate consequences. You could get banned from a guild for murder or repeated theft. The quest lines felt like you were accomplishing something other than just sprinting straight up through the ranks to the top. (Seriously, if doing 1 or 2 random 'jobs' was enough to get a promotion in real life, I'd be CEO by now, not underpaid part-timer.)

* Vampire clans -- and they weren't all out in the open, either. Believable joining, no "come on down, shake some hands!" here.

* Werewolves. Holy crap. I know the entire point to them was the Hircine storyline, but the cutscenes, the story, the way that being a werewolf or NOT being a werewolf actually meant something to the world.. that was awesome.

* House strongholds -- I had to WORK for that stupid house, and it truly felt like my own because I had to build it, then run around and hire people to work in it. I didn't just accumulate a bunch of cash selling cups and plates and then waltz up to the town mayor, picking out the most expensive, pre-built, pre-furnished, yet totally empty mansion in the city.

* I got to over-see the development of a town, and I got to make choices that effected how it would ultimately be.


Oblivion
* It was pretty.

* Harvest-able plants!

* Improved combat.

* NPC Schedules, giving them lives. It wasn't exactly the Radiant AI that we were promised, but it was well ahead of Morrowind and in some respects, the schedules are more in-depth/believeable than those of Skyrim's NPCs.

* Yeah, okay, that's about it for me.


Skyrim

* Visuals. Stunning freaking visuals.

* Lots more clans and groups than what was seen in Oblivion. Still, they all seem rather oblivious of one another.

* Dragons -- and not just dragons, but well animated ones, that actually do some pretty incredibly stuff when it comes to landing, flying, and trying to cook you. I think that had they been a LOT more dangerous and not so scaled down and as common as cliff racers, people would have found it easier to marvel at this. Really, this is a computer gaming feat.

* Random events.

* Better AI. Granted, I am annoyed that there really aren't any travellers on the road like there were in Oblivion (everyone seems content to stay mostly in their own cells). But very nice.

* Clear, amusing, and variable dialogue. The khajiit voices are endearing, but I wish the argonians sounded more... reptilian.

* Big world, I'm still exploring it. But I'm already feeling the desire for more as I've wandered across most of the major hotspots in the game.

* Radiant Stories. These are a nice tool.



At first, I was abhorred about Skyrim's slimming down, but I think they've done a good job of compensating for the loss of stats. The armors are beautiful, and I can understand why they did away with peicemail armors (I personally enjoy both). I miss being able to layer clothing or view jewelry, or wear more than one ring. I also noticed that there weren't any bracelets in the game, which made me kind of annoyed. I also would have preferred to see more racial differences -- I guess they wanted you to just worry about how cool you want to look, but the fact that they are so bland saps some of the color out of the world. I hear that Nords are treated more friendly than other races, but I don't see it. I expected my high elf to get scorned, or have guards follow my khajiit around, or nords tell my dark elf to gtfo of Windhelm -- but I see none of these things. Ulfric is just as happy with his altmer minion as he is with his Nord ones, and no one notices or cares about the argonian buying a house inside the town even though some of the areas of the game have made a point to show that they're not welcome like that. Ah well.

This is a major problem for me. We get all the backstory about how the Stormcloaks are racist, they hate the dunmer, khajit are considered as thieves in skyrim, yet you're equally welcome as a Dunmer or Khajit in every Skyrim city. You are not subject to that racism or discrimination which every other Dunmer of Khajit NPC gets in Skyrim. Same if you're a high-elf wielding magic. Ulfric doesn't bat an eye and consider you as a thalmor for even a fraction of a second! And if I become the leader of the companions, those guards in whiterun (home of the companions!) still insult me about fetching the mead. You'd think they would recognize the leader of their cities famous guild. It seems like the NPCs in Skyrim are blind

I know, Skyrim has a really great world, and the effort Bethesda put to make each location unique shows. But I feel that they could've gotten a lot further with the storyline and NPC reactions.

ok, heres the thing.
Skyrim I shot an arrow, if it hits its because I aimed right. If I swing an axe, if im close it will always hit weither it does dmg or is blocked becauze I moved to the right location. Skill points only determine how much dmg I do.

In an rpg, I shot an arrow and im not specced for archery, I will miss quite often until I start doimg it quite a bit and my charector geta good at it. Mmm just like in real life, I pick up a bow without any knowledge on how to use it, I doubt ill even be able to shot the damn thing. In a rpg, if I atk someone, it is not a gurateee hit, for I may have missed, its blocked or parry, or they dodged it. With stats and skills, it deteemines if I hit or crit the thing im swinging at. The skill points determine if im any good at swinging a blade.
in rpgs, our charector gets better at things when we spec and actually do them, to how much dmg we do all the way to if we even connect. If I cast a spell in skyrim, it will always go off and do whats its suppozed to do weither im spec for it or not as long as I have the mana. In a rpg, I cast a spell im noy familar with, chances are it wont go off or will take me couple trys for it to work until I start working and raising my skill in that field of magic and still even determines the lvl type of spell if its an apprentice type spell, I will have a better chance ofcasting it compared to a master skill spell. You know an actual feel of being a master mage because u have worked and are now able to cast spells at ease instead of being someone who has magic or mana or whatever u wanna call it and be able to just learn a spell one time and be able to do the same thong as a master wizard with little to work.

Id like to qoute someone and I forgot who but here it goes.
in skyrim, u start off good at everything and just get better. In morrowind u start off as a lowly know nothing peasent that rises up to be the hero of the land.
And yes when I say rpg, I was talking about morrowind. In skyrim, its all based on YOUR skills and in morrowind, its all based on your CHARECTORs skills. So basicall in skyrim, ur charector if ur good will be a god at lower levels and on up, because its based on ur akills andd ease of hits always connectimg and spells going off, whereas in morrowind its all based on ur charector if a blow hits or if a spell actually goes off.

@Redneckdevil

Exactly my point. In Fallout 3, unless you invested in the skill for small guns, your aim would always be slightly off and waver from the crosshair, and putting points to that skill would gradually make you better at that skill until your hands would not waver anymore while pointing a gun at someone. That, I felt, gave a real sense of progression (and also why Fallout 3 was basically a RPG in the guise of a FPS). Skyrim somewhat lacks in this character progression, although I do appreciate that the skills are less 'linear' thanks to the perks. But I feel that they could've taken the perk-progression mechanic a lot deeper (like, perks for unarmed skills, which is interestingly a very viable way to play in Skyrim even without perks). And the gamejam DLC showed that they experimented with added perks for lycanthropy. Probably they didn't have the time (11/11/11 deadline anyone?) to make it more in-depth.

Well, honestly, I wouldn't have a problem with this if it were true, but it's not really true. There's almost nothing to learn about combat other than which power attacks are the most useful and when you should block/power attack. That's pretty shallow for player skill. I already wrote about it on the last page, but making a good hit has nothing to do with mouse movement, your position relative to the enemy, your reflexes, watching what the enemy is doing and using certain moves at certain times. The only skill you need is clicking with the left and right mouse buttons. I found early in the game that a very effective strategy is to get fast one-handed weapons, and relentlessly attack blocking enemies. They often take 5-10 hits before they stop blocking and they take a lot of damage through those blocks. But you can basically do this with any weapon, and if your character is decent it will work.

Player skill being important could be done well if you actually had to aim and move the mouse to "swing" your weapon, or there was a large variety of attack types and their effectiveness would depend on how well you can chain them together against certain fighting styles you see. For example, if you attacked twice in a row from the same direction, your attack might be blocked easily by an enemy blocking.

It's not like that. It's just click click click.

The only thing that makes a significant difference is the damage each hit does, and that's determined by your character skills. However, it's done in an extremely shallow way - all you have to think about is your weapon skill (+perks) and the weapon's damage, and the weapon skill increases automatically with use and your weapon damage isn't something you need to think about during battles. Why do you think the difficulty slider makes a difference? All it does is change the damage dealt by you and your enemies, but it makes a big difference because that's all that matters. Seriously try playing on master, than on adept, then on novice and just using "hack and slash" at each difficulty, and then using "player skill" at each difficulty. I don't think you'll see that these difficulties change much with the combat strategy you use, but their nature of changing the damage dealt definitely makes fights harder or easier.

Oh, and magic isn't really based on player skill at all either. It's not like you have to watch what the enemy is casting and be reactive, or "piece together" spells by chaining different spell words together, or move your mouse in a certain "rune" motion... you just blast away with fireballs, and if your character skill is high enough then you'll win the battle.

I say this with a long history of competitively playing FPS games and Starcraft. Those take player skill if they're decent games (i.e. not COD), because that's the idea of that genre. And I know that might not matter to you, but seriously, Skyrim takes next to 0 player skill, so it's still an RPG, but the RPG elements are extremely shallow and that's why it's a bad RPG.

You say that morrowind was, at release. "hideously ugly" compared to gothic. But then we move on to the quote: skyrim was pretty out of the box. You are comparing horrible if i had to say something. There was a much bigger difference between Skyrim and for example: Witcher 2, then morrowind and gothic. Both came out 2011. You are talking like you don't care for graphics but then you suddenly do.

Did you mean pretty as in "filled with many things to look at" or what. can you refrase that please?

Please read carefully, i am pointing out the classification of game is a lot blurry then before.

first go back to sniper rifle theory, depends on hows one define a sniper rifle. Someone think is bolt action, accuracy and range, someone think accuracy, someone look at the rifle scope and ignore what gun type and say it is a sniper rifle. Its up to YOU!

back on topic, I will say COD is a FPS game and it is always a FPS game even they insert RPG elements, why? because back to paper concept of the game it is a FPS game, the shooting element is the first priority, customization is an add on only. Did you get to walk around a village buy ammo and gears in COD? Did you talk to random person to gain information and quest? A FPS game with a little rgp element don't make it an RPG; Lets get back to TES, this game started from paper concept it is an RPG, the story, the world, the lore definitely the dev is trying to make an RPG, combat is only a small % of the whole game and what they did is adding FPS elements with simplify the attribute system. In my definition it is an ARPG.

Exactly, that's why there is a game type named ARPG. To be precise, Skyrim is an ARPG.

But generally, ARPG, SRPG, neverwinternight RPG all are listed under RPG. So yes, Skyrim is RPG, but it is more ARPG type.

It is based on ur skill because everything u do with exception of range will always hit. U say clicky clicky, ok heres how it will go do in skyrims melee witha 1 handed sword with skill 20 to a dragon, hit hit hit hot hit hit hit. Now in morrowind still doimg clicky clicky, its miss miss hit miss miss blocked miss. Still doing clicky clicky. What im getting at OS yes in tes its all about clicky c
Clicky but what happens when u do that?

Hlw bout this, imagine we back in the 60s and Bruce lee is still alive and we was to fight him. If we was going by akyrims way me and Bruce lee if fist fighting would basically be standing tjere trading blows and no metter that this dude is wayyyyyy more skilled than u,, u will always land a hit on him if ur in range, thats even ur charector starting out. If going by morrowind, we could even be standing there and Bruce lee would be dodging without moving his feet, parrying and etc of us just starting out.

Yes its clicky clicky, but its the progressive and fulfilling way that its because we worked with our charector that yes he svcks at swinging a sword, but dammit we have cranked many of skulls with our fists and it actually feels like an accomishment when our charector gets good at somethong, because we worked to have him that way. In skyrim, theres no work at all, no sense of accomishment that hey we worked hard to get that charector good at whatever, becaise starting out [censored] he was alrdy good.

So im not disputing skyrims an rpg, uve done a good job exaining that. Im exaining why its not a good tes game when compared to the previous titles. tbh,, in skyrim, yes the world is more vast but do u really have that many choices?
They keep taking stuff out and making it prettier, but we keep losing more and more choices and customizations.

Were losing our sense of accomplishment for a charector and his role that we decided for our charector.

It' a great game but it really lacks in the writing and speech department. I never really feel attached to the characters like I do in Fallout 3 and New Vegas. There isn't much consequence of your actions and I don't feel as though you make any difference in Skyrim apart from the obvious ridding of dragons. You kill an emperor and not many people give a [censored]. You restart the thieves guild in some of the cities, Not many [censored]s are given. Winterhold is basically destroyed and no attempt is made to rebuild it. I'm an argonian and a Dark Elf and I can buy property in Windhelm hmmmm.

Fair enough, since it is your definition.

And i agree the choice and decision making is very thin. I rather hope they make more rival factions like the civil war. And yes, more influrence on each of your choice always nice too.

Morrowind and Daggerfall are 2 of the BEST RPG's EVER, as well as TES RPG's. I put thousands of hours into both, something I haven't been able to do with Oblivion nor Skyrim. Why is Morrowind and Daggerfall the best? I could go through it but I really don't have the time, as it would take a good hour for me to put into words and examples of how Morrowind and Daggerfall are better. To put it simply, Role Playing is the focus of those games while simplification and instant gratification are the focus of Oblivion and Skyrim.


Please tell me why my opinion of what an RPG is factually incorrect and your's isn't.

Eh I'd say where it fails the most is in providing like you said only one outcome. All they have to do is provide for multiple view points and paths like you see in many of the quests in New vegas. That way you really can "Role play" your character's view with out the arbitrary "oh I can't do this quest because it doesn't provide an outcome that my character would want.

TES has never really been that focused on specific RPG elements, more on the large open world exploration. Skyrim does that really well.

A "fact" isn't what you think it is in your opinion
In my opinion Skyrim isn't an Rpg in the traditional way.Its more an action/adventure game with some rpg element if you ask me.

But i don't exclude that i can be wrong,and that the term "Rpg" probably have changed its original meaning in the years.


I agree.

I object to the topic title, which blatantly dismisses Skyrim as being a great TES game..

Great != better than the rest...

Have you played Daggerfall and Morrowind? Those games set the standards for all RPG's in my opinion. I'm not exactly sure how you can say with a straight face that TES was never focused on RPG elements. If not than why even bother adding the "RPG" acronym to the game?

i'm not sure i understand.

though, a rough attempt at both character and player-based skill, the combat in morrowind was heavily based on the character stats.

as well, though i haven't played daggerfall, what i've read and seen from others and myself, it definitely has classic rpg roots.

Well,not in my opinion.
To me is far more "standard Rpg" Fallout New Vegas than Morrowind if you ask me.

So,who can really decide "how an Rpg game should be" in the end ?

Tes have ever privileged exploration towards "the rest" - even the "rpg elements" mentioned above of Morrowind were marginal in the whole game -imagine if implemented now in Skyrim
And combat system was mediocre at best in Morrowind . I prefer the "fps-real time oriented" of Skyrim if i have to choose - even without "statistics" - and even if probably you would call me a "backstabber" now

p.s. just a suggestion to the Op : perhaps you have to "invert" your words in the title Skyrim is a great action/adventure game in the Tes series,but definitely not a "great Rpg"

I'm not saying everything in Morrowind was perfect, it wasn't. I like the combat in Oblivion and Skyrim. When hit someone with a sword, it should always make contact not just completly miss like in Morrowind. However, when I do strike someone it should use my stats to determine how much damage I do.

Even with the flaws in Daggerfall and Morrowind they were better RPG's and TES games than Oblivion and Skyrim.