Personally I hope they got a few days holiday at least since...well, have you any idea what crunch time is like in software development? With video games especially it is brutal. Especially when the higher-ups have basically said any kind of delay, no matter what, is just not gonna happen like Bethesda's managers probably did with Skyrim (11.11.11 after all ). The horror stories you hear are just...I'm talking people not seeing their families, barely seeing their own homes for a month, living off takeaway pizzas ordered to the office, crawling home so they can shower and catch 6 hours sleep before returning to the office. And a lot of those hours are unpaid. I've even heard of studios that would have their employees even sleeping in their offices instead of going home, although I know for a few health and safety eventually shut that bizarre science project down xD

The only sane response to exiting crunch time and releasing is to sleep for at least 24 hours straight, and then go out and get as drunk as humanly possible. And then return to work to get ready to do it all over again at the end of the next project.

Heck, a lot of independent developers sprung up and are populated specifically because so many coders and such are sick of crunch times, which indie studios don't tend to have in the same extremes because of the more relaxed "it'll be released when it's ready" approach.

That the game had as fews bug on most builds as it had is rather surprising. And some like the PS3 save bug I doubt any game's testing would catch, testers blaze through content, restart, blaze through again and restart. It's in a very strict, controlled environment and some bugs will always be undetectable in that environment which readily present themselves to the chaotic public. I'm reminded of the infamous "server count" bug a couple of old games had were it'd crash after so many servers were displayed in the multiplayer server list. In testing, the server count as always a specific number. Such bugs are very easy to miss.

And, when crunch time hits, you have to decide that some bugs just aren't worth the time fixing compared to the more severe bugs, they're just too rare or too deeply embedded in the code.

You do realize that most those folks have never opened a construction set in their life, let alone tried to create anything in the CS?

That's irrelevant and also pure speculation. While it may well be true you claimed that there wasn't hundreds of thousands of mod users, not mod makers. I provided hard evidence that this is not the case. There are in fact millions of mod users.

At any rate mod users are just as much consumers of the construction set as the mod makers who directly use it. Because without it they wouldn't have any mods to use. The community is indeed huge, your claims that its some sort of small insignificant group of folks without whom Bethesda would notice no difference in sales and revenue simply isn't supported by the facts.

Lastly on the point of most of them never opening the construction set again this is speculation of the highest order, there is simply no way to know how many people mess about in the cs for their own entertainment without ever releasing anything to the community. I've made dozens and dozens of mods for personal use and just the pure joy of messing around in the CS and never released any of it (as it wasn't up to a release standard). Who knows how many folks out of the 2.5 million registered members and mod consumers also gain enjoyment from the CS privately.

I just want to say that number again because its pretty phenomenal Two Point Five MILLION people!

It's like there are two arguments going on in here simultaneously, and people are quoting responses from one as ammunition for the other.

IMO there are two totally separate issues:

1) Are Skyrim purchasers entitled to a CK at all?

2) Is it acceptable for that CK to be delayed as long necessary for gamesas to iron out any kinks and also fulfill whatever other obligations they have (ie. time off, other games, paying bills whatever)?

The answer to both questions is clearly YES.

The problem I have is when people who are upset with impatient modders take the conversation to the next level by saying the purchasers have no right to expect the CK, we may never get the CK, and were stupid for wanting it to begin with....etc. etc. Blaa blaa.

Nothing makes me more impatient for the CK than reading posts by people claiming I shouldn't even get one.

And by the way, if someone thinks buying the game specifically for the CK is stupid, then why the heck are they even in the Mods forum. Go pound sand.

Completely agree there as it does apply to me...

Maybe I'll release some mods (if quality standards are met), maybe not, but as a future casual CS user all I can say is that I desperately wait for the release...

But, if the build Bethesda was suppose to release this week was crippled in the same way the game have been (meaning can't use more than 2Gb of memory), I'm glad they take more time to fix it...

To support this: I personally don't know a single person who played either Oblivion, Fallout, Fallout:NV or Skyrim without any mods on the PC. Be it minor weapon tweaks (done mostly by themselves) or huge mods like OOO for example.

I myself am a little extreme in this, and I see the new Bethesda Games (started with Oblivion, I never played Morrowind) as nice bases for creating awesome games (with mods). These games are actually almost unplayable for me "out of the box".

The ONLY reason I got the pc version of Skyrim is because of mods.
As it is right now, Skyrim is a B- kind of game. Mods can make it into an A+ kind of game, since they add variety, fix mistakes, and renew the gameplay.

I'm playing the vanilla game and I'm seeing so MANY things that can be fixed/improved/added. Granted, I svck at making mods myself, let's be honest. But the more I play the more I see how many things the modding community can bring to Skyrim.
And let's not forget my old favorite, my Greatest Mod Wish..... dragon shapeshifting!!

I'm worried that they're delaying the CK for dlc purposes. But that would be a really low blow. I wish they'd just hurry up already, because I need to know for sure wether dragon shapeshifting can or can't be modded into the game.

Would it honestly hurt one of the admins to pick up the phone or send an email and ask for an update for the forum? Dont say its not possible because clearly a "not this week" Bethesda blog has come out so clearly someone knows. 90 percent of the ill feeling and frustration would evaporate with one single sentence "Its delayed because....."

Its the lack of information, no its the lack of being bothered to inform, thats rubbing people up the wrong way. The reason is probably a very good one, and we got a pretty good game despite its setbacks, so come on B. just a quick call to say you still love us.

Said to be released before 3 December.

lol...

Said by who? Source?

That's just speculation it seems, gstaff confirmed it won't be out this week.

Exactly what I had in mind. I agree.

Exactly this.

And your source is?! According to the number of people playing this game (steam data, so there are actually more people playing it), it is very playable for the so-called majority of players.

Are you all thinking they wont release the CK because they don't want to?

I may not always agree with how much information Bethesda puts out the the community, they really do seem like a tight nit of people and keep a lot stuff to themselves, but Bethesda and the people the work for Bethesda are not brain dead. They will release the CK when they feel like the should, yes it could be 2 weeks, 1 month, 2 months after the game release, but we will have a modding community with access to the CK eventually. Its not like the Skyrim modding community is going to disappear because they didnt release the CK fast enough, I mean think about it if Morrowind still has people making mods for it after being out for what 9 years now, I think a little pateince for the CK is more the understandable from us, they did just work extremely hard on providing us a game that easily blows Oblivion out of the water! I mean its no Morrowind, but such an improvement from Oblivion, that if they want to release the CK until after they get a break or just relax, I say go for it.

For all of those that feel you are entitled to the CK, why? what makes you feel like you deserve the CK, its free software provided by Bethesda to their PC users. No where does any law or legal document say they have to provide this software for us to use. Really if they want to, they can release a press statement saying, "Sorry guys we just feel like not releasing the CK, so yeah, hope you enjoy the game". I am not saying this is what they are going to do, but they can nothing is stopping them.

Personally on a side note, I am kinda hoping the team working on the CK is on this thread right now just reading how people feel as if the deserve the right to have access to free software and looking at each other laughing. Honestly I hope its been done and they are just holding off because of all of the people that they high and mighty of themselves and that they should be entitled to this software immediately because they spent 60 dollars on the game. I don't know about you, but no one from Bethesda came to my house and forced me to buy the game, expecting the CK and not getting it right a way, was a huge disappointment, but I do not feel as if they owe it to me or that I entitled to have it because I bought skyrim for the PC.

Well that is my two cents on this whole thread.

I like how so many here have no intention, whatsoever, of ever using the CK; they're just impatient for other people to get the chance to because they want the mods.

Hah, I almost wish modders would just agree to take a brief vacation, say til after Christmas, before working on anything. See the collective apoplexy you have.

Eh?

This is what I am hopping the team working on the CK is doing, just saying, "Screw it, they can wait until Christmas." haha

you know, it's not that game studios are bad at communication, it's that gamers are bad at being communicated with.

Over the years, having played any numbers of MMO's and RPG's, one thing remains a constant through both the great games and the fail games: the dismal cesspool of official boards. We've been fairly good in comparison here on the Skyrim boards, I believe because there's actually a decent contingent of intelligent people who make complex mods, and are therefore also intelligent in OTHER areas....(am I talking about...gasp...maturity?).

But if you have been a PC gamer for any amount of time, and have browsed any amount of pre/post release "official boards" you know how quickly and easily and viciously the playerbase can turn on you.

It is for this reason ALONE that studios are very very careful about what they say and when they say it, and more often than not, it's in their best interest to simply keep quiet until they can back up their words with actions: i.e. first rule of Creation Set, is never talk about Creation Set.

It's our own damn fault.

Where is the Facebook like button when I actually want to use the damn thing!

I dont mind waiting but will love to get some info on new CK. Some screenshots of UI something some approximately ETA.

That topic they gave us on "INFO" is just dead in the water,

So true, though there is no "our" fault. It's the immature people's fault who can't take bad news reasonably and act as spoiled kids, and the mature people are the victim of that.

It's not only game companies who have become extremely careful in communication, mod teams experience the same.


That you're hoping that is really immature. Bethesda said they will release the CK, which was for many people a major factor when deciding to buy this game or not. So yes, because they told us there will be a CK, it is justified to feel entitled to the CK eventually! Yes, I know we don't have a legal 'right' to it, but there is more to this sort of thing than just laws and official rules.

Took the words right out of my mouth...

Edit.. I think it's safe to assume the time frame will be similar to the GECKs. So I'm expecting it to be early-mid december.

True, I have to agree there, but the occasional post doesnt hurt. There's a lot of irrationality around the subject, that the CK wont be released and so on and so forth. For me its not about the time, its about being treated civilly and a few words cost nothing, especially when they are posted on an official blog but without any consideration of posting it over here. As I said, the ill feeling will just fade away the moment something factual appears.

People have a right to feel apprehensive when so many gaming companies have pulled a fast one in the past, but getting ratty with each other is self defeating. Anyway thats my last on the subject, Ive a map editor to work out how to use. At least the delay has bought me some valuable chin rubbing time as I pore over L3dt.

The CK will arrive, given time.

DragoonWraith, I had to read your post a few times before I worked it out, my brain gets slower with age. Yes I think a good many people have no intention of using the CK. It will take us months anyway to figure out how it works!

Heh.

So you're saying they implemented a whole new rendering engine (because they sure as hell didn't implement a new game engine, I just compared the C++ class inheritance trees ), and then somehow opted to include the same visual bugs the old one had (example: water not turning murky until your camera is fully submerged)?

That's ... a funny idea.