A few 100k mod users is still a few million in revenue. Does it cost less than that to modify and distribute the CS/K? I definitely think so.

And then there's the role that we, the hardcoe ES fans that also use mods, have in promoting the product and generating hype and word of mouth marketing, the best kind of marketing. Not catering to the hardcoe fans is damaging in the long run to game companies.

Not to mention we're the type of people that allowed them to continue making games (the money before the console craze)

Then you can get your pitchforks and torches ready for when they make a post on the forums that says "we lied, no CK for you". Until then, it's pissing in the wind. They haven't broken any sort of promise here.

Why did I have a feeling SOMEONE would try and pull this, knowing full well what I had to be referring to?

http://software.intel.com/en-us/blogs/2010/04/19/hear-that-knocking-sound-its-pc-gaming/ And I don't want to hear some crap about Intel bias or anything either, because that's been tried already. Bias or not, Intel has the hard numbers to back their claims.

People claim console users outnumber us 10 to 1. I wonder with what data they base that on, because if you're going by something Bethesda told you, they won't back that up with hard numbers because their bean counters won't allow it.

I just died inside.

To put it quite simply the argument for entitlement has been discussed before. The CK was stated to be released on or shortly after the game.

http://www.bethblog.com/index.php/2011/01/19/new-creation-kit-to-bring-modding-tools-to-skyrim/

So people have based their purchase upon this. This is akin to advertising a car, the manufacturer and dealer stating in the press that everyone who buys one will get a free tool kit to fit that specific car within a short time after buying it, then the company deciding not to bother. Case heard, found for the plaintif, case closed.

So there is no wriggling out of it, the CK is either released or, even without any further consideration of action, who here on these forums at the very least (and you can search google to see how many other people out there are asking where's my tool kit?) a lot of people will never buy from the company again or believe a single word claimed or advertised.

Now Bethesda arent going to shoot themselves in the foot, well I hope not, so its just a question of:

1. Why the delay and how long it will be.
2. Why no-one has seen it fit or neccesary to come into Bethesda's own forums and tell people what is happening and why. (And they are not too busy if Gstaff can find the time to blog the info)

I am impatient for the CK just like everyone, but there's no sense at all in us bickering amongst ourselves when we should be showing Bethesda that we are a united community and that customer service IS important.

What kind of nonsense comparison is that?!?

So the number of downloads of one particular mod management tool from one website for one game is small compared to the total number of people who play any sort of computer game on any sort of platform (or maybe the total number of people who own PCs I'm not sure what your figure is supposed to represent). Well what a surprise!

That's such a ridiculous comparison its not even funny.

A much more interesting and telling figure would be the number of downloads of the most popular mods (collated from the various sites that offer mods) compared to the sales figures for the game in question (more interestingly the PC sales figures specifically). A quick and dirty look just at skyrimnexus shows that the most popular mod already has over 145,000 unique downloads from that one site alone and that's only 2.5 weeks since launch of the game and the CK hasn't even been released yet.

I would say its pretty clear that the modding community (users and makers) constitute a significant fraction of the PC player base of Skyrim.

Thats a lot of pitchforks (or refunds) so there really isnt a question of it never being released. The issue for me (perhaps only for me) is customer service and lack of information. When an admin can blog elsewhere that the CK isnt out this week, its a poor show that they cant drop a message here. Thats about the only thing, for me anyway. Yeah I'm impatient for it, but ah well maybe they have taken a break, maybe they put everything into the patch etc, no great shakes either way. But at least say what youre doing Bethesda.

Honestly at one point mod users made up a small portion of PC gamer, but as with Bethesda in general Fallout 3 got a lot of attention and so did its modding community. I've played Morrowind since I was a child and I've used mods since getting the PC version in 2005 so I am not just one of those said people. But I know several people who are, and all of them knew about Fallouts PC mods. Considering word of mouth, internet and magazine articles, and previous knowledge of the series one can easily say that the majority of players of Skyrim know about the existence of mods, even though half as many don't even know what the creation kit is. If you say I have no idea what I am talking about then that's fine, but I am taking this from my personal experience and I know that it is true.

This. It is a point a vast number of people have either missed or forgotten, sadly. And if its similar to the tools we've used before such as the G.E.C.K and Construction Set all the better IMO.

Yes and no.

Think of it like this

Creation is to "Gamebryo" what UE3 is to UE2. What needs to be updatred is updated/remade, but theres still a lot of things that are handled like their previoous game engine.

Though with that said, bethesda was only really using "Gamebryo" in the most vague sense, they had already modified it like crazy... so Creation is a heavily upgraded version of the modified gamebryo... at any rate, since the games (Oblivion and skyrim) use the same file architecture, I dont see why releasing a "Creation Kit" (aka Construction Kit) would take so long.

I never said they did. You said the community here needed to stop acting "entitled". We feel entitled because it was promised. I also said I believed it would be released sooner rather than later.

So you either fail at reading comprehension or fail at trolling. Either way I'm done with you.

Here, let me show you the key phrase in your statement:

It matters not what you stick behind that as a qualifier. You feel entitled. That's great. That's what I based the entire rant about all this over inflated feeling of entitlement. It's all based on horse crap. They have not failed to deliver on anything. Fallout 3's CK came out 6 weeks after the game. We're not even halfway to that point.

So no. I did not fail to comprehend what you were saying at all. And since I wasn't trolling you either, the second bit you said I failed at doesn't even factor in.

. Everyone needs to chill and stop acting like impatient internet gamer time is what real developers operate on.

Well, if it takes a couple of weeks longer to release then I am willing to wait. I would rather wait to get a working construction kit that get one now which could be broken and crashes without saving or even corrupts my work.

"They promised", "we feel entitled", sure is Left 4 Dead 2 in here...

I'd like the CK to be released as well, but things simply do not always go as planned. I'm amazed Beth even managed to release the game without delays.

The time it takes to release the CK depends on the company's resource management and the assigned staff's competence, I think, but I see no reason to doubt that as of the 8/9 business days that have passed. It would be a damn shame if this became a case of 'too little, too late' like with Left 4 Dead's DLC (which even I think was handled poorly), but entitlement is rather laughable. You paid for the game you got, and a delayed modding kit is a setback at worst.

You can complain in 2012. It has not even been a MONTH since the release of Skyrim. You are entitled to a Creation Kit. You are not entitled to having a Creation Kit on the very day of release. And while it has been eighteen days since release, Bethesda is under no obligation to give you a Creation Kit before it's ready. Get that into your skull, because Bethesda aren't going to be releasing it early just because of a few people feeling "entitled" and a few others making the hilariously stupid mistake of buying the game just for the modding tools.

If you want to complain, complain AFTER release when/if the Creation Kit turns out to be a buggy mess - and if it does, it'll probably be because so many people were screaming at them to release it early.

Well, we are entitled as it was promised. They did not specify a specific date so no one can get up in arms over it.

It will come, but when it comes is anyone's guess. Everyone should enjoy the game and try harder to be patient.

Actually, nobody is entitled at all, even if it was promised. Otherwise I can think of a lot more pressing things that were promised that we didn't get that we've ACTUALLY PAID FOR and legally ARE entitled to.

I am already filled to the brink with features for my mod I am still happy and play the game. Why all the fuss and haste? It will be released this week I am suer. Just wait and play the game. Even unmodded it is a great game.

There isn't *really* a few "hundred k" mod users though. This is always a gross exaggeration. One that is always overlooked in these discussions.

Our community is actually quite small and yet Bethesda shows us love with support for our hobby/passion of modding TES.

This is coming from someone who's been mod using and mod making since Morrowind days.

I really wish people would understand and respect that Bethesda doesn't *owe* us anything in regards to a CS; and the fact that they're at least making one (when it's free release only guarantees a small amount of new purchases of the game), should definitely inspire patience.

TLDR: Modders aren't the be all and end all of hardcoe fandom. We aren't entitled to squat.

No. I'm not offering any sort of explanation. I'm simply trying to offer objectivity and perspective from a viewpoint that most of you are incapable of trying to comprehend. The only reason you think it has caused animosity is because you feel slighted from your own egocentric point of view. That they somehow lied to you or are holding it back just to 'hate on PC gamers' is more plausible though, right?

We are entitled to the release of the CK eventually, not too long after the game. We aren't entitled to complain already, because the game has only just been released. But they promised the CK close to the release, which has been one of the major factors for me in deciding to buy this game. Calling that a "hilariously stupid mistake" is BS, everyone has their own reasons to buy a game, different people enjoy different things.

I feel entitled to the CK within at least 4 months, since they promised.

Not when the game is only just barely playable for the majority of players.

You are all wasting time and effort arguing about being entitled or not, it does not matter who is right or wrong as the construction kit is coming.

Out of the last four games (Morrowind, Oblivion, Fallout 3, New Vegas) each had a kit, Bethesda have not let us down yet. Many of the big names at Bethesda Todd Howard specifically, have stated that it is coming. It has not been a month yet, be patient. And with that I leave the topic for good as I do have better things to do with my time, like planning my mods.

Really so the over 2.5 million members of the nexus network (a modding distribution site for bethesda games, dragon age and some other game I've not heard of) arn't part of the community and the over 145,000 unique people who have already downloaded the most popular mod for skyrim barely 2 and a bit weeks since launch aren't really mod users they just like to download files for fun?

And thats just one (all be it probably the most popular) modding site. Mod makers and users is a massive part of the PC userbase for Bethesda games and rightly so, we all know here how great it is and how fantastic Bethesda is for providing us with such powerful tools. Its a win/win for both parties, they know it, we know it. I just wish they would communicate a bit more with us about it.

I don't think the Beth mod community is "small". I guess the popular mod sites have better numbers as we. A small mod community would be BG2, albeit small but still active.