I hope Dawnguard does something to tackle the morality of th : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:48 am

Well, then I guess the source of energy in plants is something that cannot be justified, being a game.

Anyway, would it not be better to just take out a big threat to humans, at one time? Less damage would be caused that way in the long run. It's like dragons. Is it better to allow them to continue to kill, or to just take them out for good or come to an agreement, like the following of Paarthurnax's Way of the Voice.

And as I said before, vampires are inherently evil. They were created by Molag Bal for the soul purpose of being a blight on humanity.

As a quote from Paarthurnax "Is it not better to overcome your evil nature through yourself instead of being born good?" .

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:53 pm

I thought you were referring to an ice age, or something like that, which obviously wouldn't spear people living in caves. Well, I guess they could shelter themselves from the cold, but then everyone could just move to Blackreach. Furthermore we have no idea what will happen to the sun. Maybe all it's useful effects will still work. If all life died they would starve, I doubt they are suicidal.

Great, so thanks to the vamps everyone becomes like the Falmer. In addition to their souls being destroyed.

Thanks a lot Harkin!

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:46 am

As a quote from Paarthurnax "Is it not better to overcome your evil nature through yourself instead of being born good?" .

So true. Parthurnax is a pimp, his Thu'um gets all the ladies

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:54 pm

I've briefly skimmed through all this. And so I'm seeing some people think Vampires are completely evil?
No.

Here's the REAL deal with Vampires.

Vampires were once people. And like most people, there are good and there are bad.
So not every Vampire is a villain.
There are people who seek to become a Vampire, and there are those who unwillingly become a Vampire.
To want to eradicate an entire race is simply evil itself!

Think of it this way.

You're in a cave, looking to find some gold ore to mine. Bring home some gold for the family.
But oh no, a Vampire. You now have the disease. You rush home, but home is far away. 3 days pass. You're a vampire. Too late. You didn't WANT to be one, but you are.
Family either shuns you or accepts you for what you are.

But eventually everyone else finds out.
Your once friended neighbors and friends now all hate you.
And why? Because you're sick and need help. But there's no cure. So they want you dead.

So where do you go now? What do you do? No one loves you, and all because something out of your own control happened. So of course you're not going to give a damn for them anymore.
So find some people who are like you, so you can not be alone for the rest of your immortal life.
They've all been through it as well. Some may be evil, yeah, sure. But they don't want to kill you! Like your supposed 'friends'.
So yeah, I'd be a little pissed off too and want to take out the sun after realising just how MESSED up everyone else can be.
I drink blood, sure, I get it, it's weird. But I gotta do it.
You want to kill me for it! Do you have to? To stay a live? No? Well then you're the messed up one.

Very sensible argument I'd have to say I concur vampires are sick people and if killing sick people is the proper course than that traveler who got rockjoint out in the woods must be killed

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:01 pm

Well, feeding on them may potentially turn them into a vampire. Which could eventually lead to that vampire killing people. He's better of killing a bandit and curing himself.

You must find a bandit camp, then kill one of them, and finally escape...

Not every vamp is godlike Dragonborn.

Your theories work only for player, not for the whole, even getting BSG is quite difficult and expensive, and of course you must have a skill to soultrap... pretty high requirements for a cure don't ya think ?

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:40 am

Eh ... why? And what does caves have to do with anything?

At first, I assumed the sun worked the same as in our world. So, without everyone would die, besides those who don't require it and live in caves (Falmer, mushroom, etc), though they'd eventually die to.

Well, now I'm not entirely sure. Since new light (excuse the pun

) has been shed upon the actual function of the sun in this world, I can't be quite sure what the energy source for life is anymore... There could simply be no explanation and be a hole in lore, but I'm assuming it's magic. Which could still pose a problem, since the sun is the main source of magic, and the smaller tears don't let too much magic leak.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:12 am

Do you know what "Hypocrisy" means? I don't think you're using the word right. The difference is that over time a soul thats traqed will end up leaving the stone if not in use, and when you enchant an item the soul is released.

This isn't comparable in anyway.

You are assuming tha feeding on the soul kills it, what if the soul only get temporary damage ?

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:22 am

And as I said before, vampires are inherently evil. They were created by Molag Bal for the soul purpose of being a blight on humanity.

They were created for the purpose to serve as a "middle finger" to Arkay, who's dominion is the cycle life and death on everything that lives. The designations of Gods, Demons, Aedra, and Daedra are universally confusing to the layman. They are often used interchangeably. Mehrunes Dagon is the daedric prince typically associated with evil, but this is not necessarily so. He is the prince of destruction. It's what he does. However, nothing in Oblivion can truly be destroyed, it will just come back forever and ever. For him to fulfill his role and purpose for existing, he must reach our world in order to permenately destroy things. This is why he continually tries to invade and destroy Tamriel, and this is why he is often seen as evil. Which can be purely a subjective thing.

The Aedra themselves are not intrinsically "good" (Point of view); Lorkhan Is also an Aedra but is considered evil or wrong by many. The Nords consider him good and call him Shor. The Altmer consider him evil, partly because of the fact the Nords worship him but also they blame him for separating mortals from the spirit realm. Notably Lorkhan is also the Son of Padomay, whom the dark brotherhood refer to as Sithis. Also Akatosh gave birth to the Dragons which many consider to be an act of evil as these are immortal beings that desire only power and very few are ever able to break away from that powerlust that their father gave them. Also Akatosh is the god of time, time is an unbeatable enemy that will eventually destroy all with the exceptions of Anu and Padomay. Akatosh notably is the first of the spirit/plane gods to come into existence as the creation of all aedra and deadra relies on Akatosh's power, time. Daedra and Aedra are above concepts of morality in the Elder Scrolls universe.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:47 am

Great, so thanks to the vamps everyone becomes like the Falmer. In addition to their souls being destroyed.

Thanks a lot Harkin!

Actually the falmer were forced into their situation as the ancient nords waged a genocide against the elves that Forced them into their current situation then they were stuck in the sad case of betrayal by the very elves that they thought were their friends.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:08 pm

If someone is diseased, and carries a real risk of infecting that disease onto others does that mean we should allow them to roam free, and infect/kill whomever they want?

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:20 pm

At the end of the day, Harkon is doing justice for his people and in turn killing for them. Is this so different from the Stormcloaks or realistically any faction in Elder Scrolls (including yourself). My character has killed 1,500 odd people and as such isn't exactly an arbiter of morality. The Stormcloaks started a war because of one God, a God everyone still worshiped despite the ban, the Dominion kills for racial purity and everyone else has their own reasons, it could be argued that survival of your people is a bit more of a reason for killing than God or purity.

What I mean though is that I hope Harkon presents himself and his faction as moral even if you choose Dawnguard and I hope he isn't the typical sort who would attempt such a thing. I realise what he's doing is hardly right but he does so for the betterment of his people and the protection of them in relation to prophecy. The Dawnguard on the other hand kill his people in cold blood. Surely curing a Vampire is what would be moral? I see to much assumption that Dawnguard are the 'good guys' and find it hilarious that anyone could present themselves as 'good guys' whilst playing a game such as this.

This was more in response to the amount of rhetoric I see about 'Vampires' being posted as though they're inherently evil and the Dawnguard are saviours.

I seriously hope you mean more than good vs evil here. Morality is NOT a black and white issue, so it really irks me when people put it on a one dimensional scale. I'M LOOKING AT YOU, STAR WARS GAMES.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:53 am

Hypocrisy in your statement astounds me, so your saying it's okay for vampire to kill bandits, but your saying they cant feed on them?

Oh, I don't care if they feed on Bandits, you already kill them by the motherload. I'm talking about feeding on regular people in cities and such.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:16 pm

I believe morality is subjective. Too many people believe the contrary.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:58 am

They were created for the purpose to serve as a "middle finger" to Arkay, who's dominion is the cycle life and death on everything that lives. The designations of Gods, Demons, Aedra, and Daedra are universally confusing to the layman. They are often used interchangeably. Mehrunes Dagon is the daedric prince typically associated with evil, but this is not necessarily so. He is the prince of destruction. It's what he does. However, nothing in Oblivion can truly be destroyed, it will just come back forever and ever. For him to fulfill his role and purpose for existing, he must reach our world in order to permenately destroy things. This is why he continually tries to invade and destroy Tamriel, and this is why he is often seen as evil. Which can be purely a subjective thing.

The Aedra themselves are not intrinsically "good" (Point of view); Lorkhan Is also an Aedra but is considered evil or wrong by many. The Nords consider him good and call him Shor. The Altmer consider him evil, partly because of the fact the Nords worship him but also they blame him for separating mortals from the spirit realm. Notably Lorkhan is also the Son of Padomay, whom the dark brotherhood refer to as Sithis. Also Akatosh gave birth to the Dragons which many consider to be an act of evil as these are immortal beings that desire only power and very few are ever able to break away from that powerlust that their father gave them. Also Akatosh is the god of time, time is an unbeatable enemy that will eventually destroy all with the exceptions of Anu and Padomay. Akatosh notably is the first of the spirit/plane gods to come into existence as the creation of all aedra and deadra relies on Akatosh's power, time. Daedra and Aedra are above concepts of morality in the Elder Scrolls universe.

Yes. All of it.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:26 am

I seriously hope you mean more than good vs evil here. Morality is NOT a black and white issue, so it really irks me when people put it on a one dimensional scale. I'M LOOKING AT YOU, STAR WARS GAMES.

Don't even get me started on Star Wars games. I absolutely hated the bias against the "Dark Side" and the "Sith" when the canon endings for the game are always lightsided. I want to get into Star Wars "morality" with the Dark Side being "good" and the Jedi being "evil", but this is not the topic. Don't mention Star Wars near me

.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 6:59 pm

Aye, which is why I'm very irritated when it's presented as a one dimensional issue. Even if it was a two dimensional issue, that'd be simplifying it, but it's too complex to properly portray in the 3+ dimensions that it is.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:07 am

Oh, I don't care if they feed on Bandits, you already kill them by the motherload. I'm talking about feeding on regular people in cities and such.

AH forgive me then, I "misinterpreted" your statement :biggrin:

I agree, feeding on innocents is wrong.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:53 pm

It really should be pointed out that vampirism in Skyrim is actually quite harmless. If you are a vampire no one will die or be turned if you feed on them.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:11 am

Actually the falmer were forced into their situation as the ancient nords waged a genocide against the elves that Forced them into their situation then they were stuck in the sad case of betrayal by the very elves thought were their friends.

I don't know why you're bolding "forced' as if it carries some hidden meaning, but I'll respond anyway.

They're trying to block out the sun which will "force" everything else to live in darkness, and survive in dark dank caves, and may eventually become like the Falmer.

That's assuming the food inside caves aren't lethal to them. And if they are then the people will be forced into cannibalism to survive. Maybe eating each other, maybe turning the tables, and eating vampires. Who knows?

Only one things for certain. Everything will go to [censored].

It really should be pointed out that vampirism in Skyrim is actually quite harmless. If you are a vampire no one will die or be turned if you feed on them.

No. In Oblivion one of the ways to become a vampire is to let a vamp feed on you in your sleep.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:33 pm

I don't know why you're bolding "forced' as if it carries some hidden meaning, but I'll respond anyway.

They're trying to block out the sun which will "force" everything else to live in darkness, and survive in dark dank caves, and may eventually become like the Falmer.

That's assuming the food inside caves aren't lethal to them. And if they are then the people will be forced into cannibalism to survive. Maybe eating each other, maybe turning the tables, and eating vampires. Who knows?

Only one things for certain. Everything will go to [censored].

From the trailer it's quite clear that "blocked" sun gives light, maybe a bit less tho.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:18 pm

From the trailer it's quite clear that "blocked" sun gives light, maybe a bit less tho.

As mentioned in game Skyrim is a hard land to grow things in. How much do you figure a gimped sun will factor into that?

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:36 pm

They were created for the purpose to serve as a "middle finger" to Arkay, who's dominion is the cycle life and death on everything that lives. The designations of Gods, Demons, Aedra, and Daedra are universally confusing to the layman. They are often used interchangeably. Mehrunes Dagon is the daedric prince typically associated with evil, but this is not necessarily so. He is the prince of destruction. It's what he does. However, nothing in Oblivion can truly be destroyed, it will just come back forever and ever. For him to fulfill his role and purpose for existing, he must reach our world in order to permenately destroy things. This is why he continually tries to invade and destroy Tamriel, and this is why he is often seen as evil. Which can be purely a subjective thing.

The Aedra themselves are not intrinsically "good" (Point of view); Lorkhan Is also an Aedra but is considered evil or wrong by many. The Nords consider him good and call him Shor. The Altmer consider him evil, partly because of the fact the Nords worship him but also they blame him for separating mortals from the spirit realm. Notably Lorkhan is also the Son of Padomay, whom the dark brotherhood refer to as Sithis. Also Akatosh gave birth to the Dragons which many consider to be an act of evil as these are immortal beings that desire only power and very few are ever able to break away from that powerlust that their father gave them. Also Akatosh is the god of time, time is an unbeatable enemy that will eventually destroy all with the exceptions of Anu and Padomay. Akatosh notably is the first of the spirit/plane gods to come into existence as the creation of all aedra and deadra relies on Akatosh's power, time. Daedra and Aedra are above concepts of morality in the Elder Scrolls universe.

I know. I actually had to explain the existance of Nirn and Lorkhan tricking the Aedra to sacrifice their divine power to create and bind themselves to Nirn. The Daedra are incomprehensible, since they follow none of the laws of Nirn. But this isn't the right place for all of that.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:55 pm

I don't know why you're bolding "forced' as if it carries some hidden meaning, but I'll respond anyway.

They're trying to block out the sun which will "force" everything else to live in darkness, and survive in dark dank caves, and may eventually become like the Falmer.

That's assuming the food inside caves aren't lethal to them. And if they are then the people will be forced into cannibalism to survive. Maybe eating each other, maybe turning the tables, and eating vampires. Who knows?

Only one things for certain. Everything will go to [censored].

No. In Oblivion one of the ways to become a vampire is to let a vamp feed on you in your sleep.

Im bolding forced because my computer decided to have a seizure while i was trying to type to fast and it caused it to scroll through the top options in the post editor, besides i was trying to tell you that the falmer are blind because

 the dwemer force fed them poisonous food that turned them into the monstrosities they are now without giving up any spoilers

Besides im sure the residents of nirn aren't idiotic enough to eat each other hopefully.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:47 am

so yeah....

i'm gonna kill all other races if my race survives this way.

i am clearly a good person

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:16 am

so yeah....

i'm gonna kill all other races if my race survives this way.

i am clearly a good person

+1