How are the Legion a threat to the NCR again? : Fallout: New Vegas

» Mon May 30, 2011 6:20 pm

To all you NCR loverboys, I'm not trying to crap in your cereal. In the Core Region, the NCR are a force to be reckoned with. I'll admit that. But I say here with all confidence that if the Courier had not helped the NCR (if that's what you choose to do) the NCR would have lost the Dam. The NCR's weakness is that they spread themselves too thin and are a bunch of money hungry landgrabbers. The Core Region is more concerned about the brahmin barons in the Core than the Dam, because it's the barons that have all the money.

To add, the Legion already has more land than the Core. He has most of the Four States Commonwealth, with parts of Southern Utah, and Southwestern Colorado up to or around Denver. Their currency has MORE value than the NCR currency. With the protection they give traders, they have a very great means of having a superior economy over NCR.

Currently California has more inhabitants than all the territory the Legion controls has combined. Given the fact that the Legion's territory began recovering much later than the NCR, was mostly tribal and Caesar's bloodthirsty habits when conquering there is no reason to assume that has changed much.

Yes because their money is made of gold and silver. NCR currency is fiat. The British pound and the euro are both worth considerably more than the US dollar. Does that mean Great Britain and the European Union are more industrialized or capable of maintaining a war effort than the USA?

» Tue May 31, 2011 4:57 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Isandlwana

Yeah, superior technology =/= victory. It was however about the only zulu victory in the anglo-zulu war, but still.

» Tue May 31, 2011 2:30 am

What evidence do we have that Legion Recruits have better training than NCR soldiers?
While the NCR had many under-trained recruits because they ware outnumbered they must still have their experienced core unites.
Do small time tribals actually have that much combat experience and warfare knowledge?
As Caesar says, the tribes were simply playing at war until he came along, how much could he change them -he was a follower.

Many legionaries were trained from birth even though they were the grunts of the army. They spend their entire lives raiding and pillaging, most ncr soldiers sit around shooting tin cans and collecting dust.

» Tue May 31, 2011 3:09 am

Dunno. I didn't. The fact is the Legion is clearly massing everything it can to take the Mojave from an NCR force that is constantly presented in game and in this thread as being demoralized, undertrained, under-equipped, with little support from home, infiltrated by spies and led by incompetents. This doesn't paint a picture of the Legion as the awesome force capable of taking on the Republic people are pretending.

Can they take Hoover Dam? Sure. To use a historical example the Zulus destroyed a British column at Isandlwhana but wrecked themselves doing so and never had any hope of defeating the British Empire. The circumstances are similar. The Legion can only hope to compete with the NCR in a distant theater where the NCR isn't committing many resources. They have no hope of winning a real war.

Many NPCs already admit that survival is better than being on a cross, so once the Dam falls, how many more numbers do you think will be added to the Legion? I wouldn't be surprised if they tripled their numbers. Also, if they took control of the Mojave, getting a hold of the Boomers would be inevitable. It is also good to note that the Legion in the Mojave is not represented in full force either. As said before, they occupy much of the land to the east. If Caeser was to take the Core region, he would commit more numbers to that. Also, take in account that he is a genius when it comes to warfare. Its not about rushing in and 'bang bang' I take over your territory. Its about years of planning and scheming. It's about terrorism, infiltration, and many other tactics that the NCR would be helpless against as their government expects them to play by the rules. Hell....the NCR isn't even allowed to rough up a POW to get intel?

If the Legion claim the Mojave, they would also inevitable take down House and get full control of New Vegas which would lend a huge help towards their economic status. They would also take control Helios One with the possibility of discovering it's secrets.

» Tue May 31, 2011 5:49 am

To all you NCR loverboys, I'm not trying to crap in your cereal.

Hey, it's cool, man. Everybody's workin' for the weekend, right?

In the Core Region, the NCR are a force to be reckoned with. I'll admit that. But I say here with all confidence that if the Courier had not helped the NCR (if that's what you choose to do) the NCR would have lost the Dam. The NCR's weakness is that they spread themselves too thin and are a bunch of money hungry landgrabbers. The Core Region is more concerned about the brahmin barons in the Core than the Dam, because it's the barons that have all the money.

To add, the Legion already has more land than the Core. He has most of the Four States Commonwealth, with parts of Southern Utah, and Southwestern Colorado up to or around Denver. Their currency has MORE value than the NCR currency. With the protection they give traders, they have a very great means of having a superior economy over NCR.

This isn't a bad point. One advantage CL has over NCR is the ability to move quickly and decisively due to extremely centralized executive power. NCR's power is much more diffused.

» Tue May 31, 2011 11:05 am

Chances are this has been said

NCR has become a blotted bureaucracy. They have become over grown and to the point where they just throw money at problems. NCR can't just force people into the army without pay like the legion can. NCR has its better troops back west protecting Brahmin because the ranchers have become very powerful. Their best rangers are off Chacing "Ghosts in Baja." The Legion is also large in size and number but are under the total control of Caesar. He says kill yourself to one of his men most would. The Legion is bleeding NCR dry. Their bureaucracy and Generals are afraid to act because beating back the legion will take alot of men and money. Money NCR does not have and Men that have to be drafted. The worce things get against the Legion the worce the leaders back in NCR look and they are afraid to lose their government jobs in the next election.

» Tue May 31, 2011 1:13 am

Currently California has more inhabitants than all the territory the Legion controls has combined. Given the fact that the Legion's territory began recovering much later than the NCR, was mostly tribal and Caesar's bloodthirsty habits when conquering there is no reason to assume that has changed much.

Yes because their money is made of gold and silver. NCR currency is fiat. The British pound and the euro are both worth considerably more than the US dollar. Does that mean Great Britain and the European Union are more industrialized or capable of maintaining a war effort than the USA?

The European populous would never support a large war but the European union does have a much higher GDP than the United states. We don't know what Fallout production figures look like for each faction but legion currency is worth more and i'd only imagine that the Legion economy is growing at a much more explosive rate due to the expansion of his army ( This is how autocracy works).

» Tue May 31, 2011 9:02 am

Except legion has better technology and a functioning army. The fact that a single army is likely capable of destroying the NCR in vegas just shows the incompetence of the NCR military. But like all democracies they stand no chance in total war. After a significant amount of causalities the war effort would come tumbling down.

Better technology? Where's the evidence for that? A single army? Everything indicates that the Legion is marshaling all the forces it has available to take the Dam. Caesar clearly views seizing the Dam and destroying the NCR as his destiny. The NCR is the one with the single army of hopeless incompetents who stand no chance against the toughened Legionaries who apparently need a massive numerical superiority and be benefited by crippling NCR incompetence in order to win.

Democracies stand no chance in total war? Right that's why Imperial Japan crushed the USA so handily. Just like Germany in WWI against the democracies of France and Britain.

» Tue May 31, 2011 9:00 am

What small time tribals?

The legion consists of the 86 tribes that the Blackfoot tribe conquered , the bulk of their forces comes from the various conquered tribes.

» Tue May 31, 2011 12:36 am

Currently California has more inhabitants than all the territory the Legion controls has combined. Given the fact that the Legion's territory began recovering much later than the NCR, was mostly tribal and Caesar's bloodthirsty habits when conquering there is no reason to assume that has changed much.

Yes because their money is made of gold and silver. NCR currency is fiat. The British pound and the euro are both worth considerably more than the US dollar. Does that mean Great Britain and the European Union are more industrialized or capable of maintaining a war effort than the USA?

There is no canon that states that one territory has more inhabitants than another. I only stated that the Legion has more land, which is geographically correct. Also, the Legion does not slaughter all of it's enemies. The Legion absorbs it's enemies. The more tribes they take over, the larger they become. They even use women to produce countless numbers of children to train into Legionaries. I would say that whoever has the higher population can be highly debatable, but since there is not enough evidence either way, I won't get into it.

As for currency, you are incorrect. The reason NCR's currency is flat is NOT because the Legion uses valuable metals for their currency. "NCR's gold-backed currency lost much of its value after the Brotherhood of Steel ambushed and destroyed their gold deposits, so the NCR's dollar is now backed by water." "Despite Caesar's poor relations with the other factions in New Vegas, Legion currency is still accepted as payment in the Mojave Wasteland, owing to the high level of trade with the Legion and the safety of its territory for caravans."

The Legion takes better care of it's caravans than the NCR does.

» Tue May 31, 2011 8:18 am

The European populous would never support a large war but the European union does have a much higher GDP than the United states. We don't know what Fallout production figures look like for each faction but legion currency is worth more and i'd only imagine that the Legion economy is growing at a much more explosive rate due to the expansion of his army ( This is how autocracy works).

Two trillion which isn't that much higher when you consider the scales involved. The point is however that monetary values say nothing about the military capacity of a state. The EU and Britain have more valuable currency but militarily both are dwarfed by the USA. We can use the Swiss franc or Norwegian Kroner also. Both of those countries have money worth more than the US dollar. Neither would be even remotely capable of challenging the USA in a war.

» Mon May 30, 2011 10:17 pm

Better technology? Where's the evidence for that? A single army? Everything indicates that the Legion is marshaling all the forces it has available to take the Dam. Caesar clearly views seizing the Dam and destroying the NCR as his destiny. The NCR is the one with the single army of hopeless incompetents who stand no chance against the toughened Legionaries who apparently need a massive numerical superiority and be benefited by crippling NCR incompetence in order to win.

Democracies stand no chance in total war? Right that's why Imperial Japan crushed the USA so handily. Just like Germany in WWI against the democracies of France and Britain.

1. Look at what legion troops equip 12.77mm weaponry, ballistic fists, Thermic lances, marksman carbines.

2. Ceaser has only one army across the river the second army arrives when Lanius attacks the dam. Ceaser's lone army is bleeding the NCR dry. And after the first failure he was cautious to attack again, so he wanted to attack when the NCR was weakest with overwhelming numbers.

3. Germany in the first world war nearly defeated three major world powers and was confronted by a fourth (the United states). Had the U.S never intervened, and after the surrender in the east the Spring Offensive would've crushed the western allies.

4. Vietnam, Philippines , Korean war.

» Tue May 31, 2011 11:39 am

Bureaucracy Kills. History has proven that an army with less technology in evey way, medical, weapons and so on can win against a richer super power. Its that simple. NCR has become to big and they can't deal with all its problems even though they have the edge in almost everything. NCR lacks the Will to fight the Legion. The Legion knows this. More Caesar waits the more damage is done to NCR. He has time to gather and train more slaves while NCR has to draft more sons and daughters and give them two weeks training and then have them partol a desert. Those sons and daughters aren't at home to help ma and pa. NCR needs to pay those troops so they jack up the taxes which only hurt ma-and-pa. Son and daughter get their legs blown off and ma-and-pa have to take care of them. People with the election campaign funds threaten not to support government leaders because those leaders want to send troops guarding brahmin to were they are really needed. War is Hell people. Its best not to fight it unless you have the iron will to fight it like the Legion.

» Mon May 30, 2011 9:55 pm

1. Look at what legion troops equip 12.77mm weaponry, ballistic fists, Thermic lances, marksman carbines.

2. Ceaser has only one army across the river the second army arrives when Lanius attacks the dam. Ceaser's lone army is bleeding the NCR dry. And after the first failure he was cautious to attack again, so he wanted to attack when the NCR was weakest with overwhelming numbers.

3. Germany in the first world war nearly defeated three major world powers and was confronted by a fourth (the United states). Had the U.S never intervened, and after the surrender in the east the Spring Offensive would've crushed the western allies.

4. Vietnam, Philippines , Korean war.

Don't forget that they also have a Howitzer that could work if it had the right parts. Considering their great relations with Caravans, I'd imagine it would be a matter of time before they found someone with the knowledge and someone with the parts to get the thing working again.

» Mon May 30, 2011 10:12 pm

While Ceasar's Legion has a smaller presence in the Mojave wasteland, it's worth remembering that they control a much larger territory east of the river, where the game's map does not extend, and it's hard to say just how much power and how many troops the Legion has there. Still, I find it a little implausible that the Legion can pose a serious threat to the NCR, given their major disadvantage in terms of equipment and their aversion to prewar medical technology. I could buy them being more of a match if the technological difference were something more along the lines of conventional firearms versus high-tech energy based weapons, or even if Ceasar's Legion was using outdated guns like repeaters or revolvers while the NCR had "modern" firearms, but when one side is dressed in patchwork armor ripping off Roman legionaries and uses sharp metal blades while the other side has guns... well, realistically speaking, I'd say the Legion would need to outnumber their foes pretty badly to avoid being picked off before they could even get close. I guess maybe they'd stand a chance through superior tactics. But while some of the better Legion commanders might be able to bring in such an advantage, if they were killed off, then I'd say the Legion wouldn't stand a chance. Indeed, I recon that the Legion's leaders are the only thing holding it together, kill off the ones at the top, and they'd go right back to the squabbling tribes they were before Caesar came along.

Their more experienced troops hold better weapons. And the reason you see so many with melee weapons is because of Caesar thought them to relly on it as a fall back.
If the NCR was more commited they might actually pose more of threat. As it stands by taking the defence they are and have wasted their advantage.

The NCR has their forces spread way to thin. Their training is awful. The capital back in the Core Region doesn't give a damn about the units in New Vegas. NCR are not even able to protect pro-NCR caravans that happen to be right outside of New Vegas. The NCR are only in a position to defend. They are only able to 'hold the line'. They lost Searchlight, they lost Nelson. It would be a matter of time before they lost the other camps along the Colorado, because they are unable to receive backup. Very high ranking officers in the NCR are Legion spies. The Fiends and Great Khans are already allied with the Legion (prior to any influence by the Courier). The pathetic Fiends are even giving Camp McCarran a run for their money. NCR's intel is all jacked up thanks to

Spoiler

Chief Hanlon who has also admitted that the Legion is going to win and wants the NCR to pull out

. There are more facts that show that NCR out in the Mojave is a weak piece of fail, but I think this is proof enough. All of which I have listed are all canon in game (most of which the NCR has admitted of themselves)

Not so much fail, but divided, both political and military.
Regarding the former side the politics back home don't favour the war and domestic interests is keeping troops and efforts there.
On the latter the Legion managed to get several hostile tribes to keep NCR occupied inside the Mojave and use the fact that they are strechted out to infiltrate even more.
The legion has little problems with this because they are ruthless against anything/one that doesn't conform and are ruled by a dictator.

As for their training, I doubt it's really as awful as people make it out to be. It might have become less with the need for new recruits, but accept for the 'Misfits' there isn't any real indication that the NCR troopers are worthless.
It's mostly the politics and bureaucracy that keeps them from being effective.

The opening cutscene.

Hanlon may have said that, But do you really trust him now?
Also, If it's true, Most of those are still part of the half.

It's not stated in the opening and given comments left and right they could have more and better equiped soldiers in the Mojave if it wasn't for domestic politics.

What evidence do we have that Legion Recruits have better training than NCR soldiers?
While the NCR had many under-trained recruits because they ware outnumbered they must still have their experienced core unites.
Do small time tribals actually have that much combat experience and warfare knowledge?
As Caesar says, the tribes were simply playing at war until he came along, how much could he change them -he was a follower.

They are trained from a young age and unrelentlessly. In general I'd say they are better trained than the standard trooper, if only because of the time they put into them.
The ordinary NCR recruit probably has a proper training, but with the way the war is going the Mojave is getting an influx of green soldiers fresh from bootcamp (perhaps even graduated early).

» Tue May 31, 2011 12:00 pm

To the OP, I am not saying that it is a sure thing that the Legion can take down the NCR, but taking into account what has been said here, can you at least admit that the Legion is a 'reasonable' threat to the NCR?

» Mon May 30, 2011 9:08 pm

There is no canon that states that one territory has more inhabitants than another. I only stated that the Legion has more land, which is geographically correct. Also, the Legion does not slaughter all of it's enemies. The Legion absorbs it's enemies. The more tribes they take over, the larger they become. They even use women to produce countless numbers of children to train into Legionaries. I would say that whoever has the higher population can be highly debatable, but since there is not enough evidence either way, I won't get into it.

As for currency, you are incorrect. The reason NCR's currency is flat is NOT because the Legion uses valuable metals for their currency. "NCR's gold-backed currency lost much of its value after the Brotherhood of Steel ambushed and destroyed their gold deposits, so the NCR's dollar is now backed by water." "Despite Caesar's poor relations with the other factions in New Vegas, Legion currency is still accepted as payment in the Mojave Wasteland, owing to the high level of trade with the Legion and the safety of its territory for caravans."

The Legion takes better care of it's caravans than the NCR does.

Well technically no but we can use our heads a bit and figure out that the 86 tribes Caesar has subdued probably didn't have a combined population of 700,000 (population of the NCR by Fallout 2) at any point let alone after he was done conquering them. More land would probably be a hindrance since he'd have to have more troops on garrison duty than he would in a more compact state. The Legion presumably slaughters a great deal of it's enemies if it wants to maintain the example of ferociousness it relies on and thoroughly break down cultures as it does. I didn't see many people absorbed from Nipton for instance.

I don't think it's highly debatable that the NCR clearly has a much higher population than the territory Caesar controls.

Didn't know that about the water. I assumed after the gold reserves were gone it was just maintained by decree. Either way it still says nothing about the Legion's military, industrial or even commercial might.

» Tue May 31, 2011 3:03 am

Didn't know that about the water. I assumed after the gold reserves were gone it was just maintained by decree. Either way it still says nothing about the Legion's military, industrial or even commercial might.

Well, that statement doesn't but the other statement involving how well they take care of their trade routes show that the Legion have significant commercial might. Are they an economic force to be reckoned with in present day? No, but I feel that it is inevitable given enough time.

» Tue May 31, 2011 4:15 am

1. Look at what legion troops equip 12.77mm weaponry, ballistic fists, Thermic lances, marksman carbines.

Right and there are elite NCR troops with power armor and miniguns. I'd take them over any of the above examples. The average Legion soldier however seem to carry machetes and light firearms. The average NCR soldier has a semi-automatic rifle. I know which side I'd put money on.

2.Ceaser has only one army across the river the second army arrives when Lanius attacks the dam. Ceaser's lone army is bleeding the NCR dry. And after the first failure he was cautious to attack again, so he wanted to attack when the NCR was weakest with overwhelming numbers.

Caesar's one army isn't bleeding the NCR dry. Caesar's one army is bleeding an isolated, demoralized, under-trained, under-equipped NCR force, riddled with spies and led by an incompetent and he still needs overwhelming numerical superiority to win.

3. Germany in the first world war nearly defeated three major world powers and was confronted by a fourth (the United states). Had the U.S never intervened, and after the surrender in the east the Spring Offensive would've crushed the western allies.

That is completely untrue. US forces had little to do with stopping the Spring Offensive which had already collapsed by the time they started to arrive in bulk. Your claim was that democracies can't keep up in total war. That's nonsense. Russia was an autocracy. It failed in a total war. Austria-Hungary was an autocracy (albeit a disorganized one) and performed miserably for the most part. Ditto for the Ottomans. France, Great Britain and Italy were democracies. They won the war with slight aid from a fourth democracy. There is far more at play in these situations than democracy or autocracy. Being one or the other gives no automatic advantage.

4. Vietnam, Philippines , Korean war.

I'm not sure where you're going with these. Is this proof for your autocracies do better in total war than democracies or generalized examples to support the Legion's chances. Neither work real well since the USA (and the rest of the UN in Korea) was not fighting anything close to a "total war" in Vietnam and Korea. As for the Phillipines which conflict in particular are you referring to?

» Tue May 31, 2011 12:13 am

To the OP, I am not saying that it is a sure thing that the Legion can take down the NCR, but taking into account what has been said here, can you at least admit that the Legion is a 'reasonable' threat to the NCR?

Yes, if only because of the way the NCR is runned.
Alot of posts here argue about the effectiveness of a dictatorship. In the long run I don't think the legion will last but I see now why it is a effective force.

The NCR must be doing something right to get this much influence and territory and I admit I have a soft spot for them since the vault dweller accidentally created them.

I mainly started this because I was amazed by how overwhelmed the legion was when you get all possible allies for the NCR

» Mon May 30, 2011 10:45 pm

What evidence do we have that Legion Recruits have better training than NCR soldiers?
While the NCR had many under-trained recruits because they ware outnumbered they must still have their experienced core unites.
Do small time tribals actually have that much combat experience and warfare knowledge?
As Caesar says, the tribes were simply playing at war until he came along, how much could he change them -he was a follower.

We see children being trained, We hear that if a legion takes drugs, does'nt listen, or disobeys an order they are punished by death, Which kind of makes them pay attention to the severe training they take.

» Mon May 30, 2011 11:20 pm

Yes, if only because of the way its runned.
Alot of posts here argue about the effectiveness of a dictatorship. In the long run I don't think the legion will last but I see now why it is a effective force.

The NCR must be doing something right to get this much influence and territory and I admit I have a soft spot for them since the vault dweller accidentally created them.

I thank you sir and add that I agree. The NCR does have their strengths, but they also have their weaknesses. All factions seem to have a unique strength and weakness. NCR does a decent job at offering a pre-war democratic stability (it ain't perfect and may be corrupt, but shoot, it was corrupt pre-war anyway). The NCR are great at making allies (something the Legion has trouble doing, although who needs allies when you can have them 'become' Legion or just throw them up on a cross?)

In the end, the world of Falllout is a huge world of diversity with imperfections everywhere. This all comes down to the ultimate point of Fallout, "War never changes". There will never be an 'el último hombre' (last man standing). All factions will always have some sort of significant threat for some other faction. All you can hope for is to make the best with what you have.

» Tue May 31, 2011 9:47 am

That is completely untrue. US forces had little to do with stopping the Spring Offensive which had already collapsed by the time they started to arrive in bulk. Your claim was that democracies can't keep up in total war. That's nonsense. Russia was an autocracy. It failed in a total war. Austria-Hungary was an autocracy (albeit a disorganized one) and performed miserably for the most part. Ditto for the Ottomans. France, Great Britain and Italy were democracies. They won the war with slight aid from a fourth democracy. There is far more at play in these situations than democracy or autocracy. Being one or the other gives no automatic advantage.

I'm not sure where you're going with these. Is this proof for your autocracies do better in total war than democracies or generalized examples to support the Legion's chances. Neither work real well since the USA (and the rest of the UN in Korea) was not fighting anything close to a "total war" in Vietnam and Korea. As for the Phillipines which conflict in particular are you referring to?

Incorrect. The U.S helped to resupply British and french forces during the war, although that wasn't the problem for the Ludendorff offensive it was the fact that American forces arrived shortly after and it made the offensive pretty much worthless, after the spring offensive British and French forces were left crippled, but so was the German army, and with the Americans in the picture the German army was in no position to fight the war any longer.

Vietnam and Korea are not examples of total war but they are comparable conflicts to what is happening in Vegas. An overambitious democracy tries to play the role of the expansionist and gets it's pants pulled down by a Autocrat who knows how to fight a war. Although in Korea American troops were better equipped, and trained in the battles that were fought. But i will get to my point in both conflicts they didn't have the support of the American public, otherwise Truman would've just blown the Chinese to kingdom come, and in Vietnam it would've just led to the complete destruction of the northern province.

» Mon May 30, 2011 8:14 pm

I thank you sir and add that I agree. The NCR does have their strengths, but they also have their weaknesses. All factions seem to have a unique strength and weakness. NCR does a decent job at offering a pre-war democratic stability (it ain't perfect and may be corrupt, but shoot, it was corrupt pre-war anyway). The NCR are great at making allies (something the Legion has trouble doing, although who needs allies when you can have them 'become' Legion or just throw them up on a cross?)

In the end, the world of Falllout is a huge world of diversity with imperfections everywhere. This all comes down to the ultimate point of Fallout, "War never changes". There will never be an 'el último hombre' (last man standing). All factions will always have some sort of significant threat for some other faction. All you can hope for is to make the best with what you have.

Well said.

We see children being trained, We hear that if a legion takes drugs, does'nt listen, or disobeys an order they are punished by death, Which kind of makes them pay attention to the severe training they take.

Thats motivation for you

I see alot of revolts in the legion coming soon.

» Mon May 30, 2011 11:51 pm

most of the time when i see battles between Cl and the NCR un patrols it often goes either of these ways. 1. Open deasert/ clear area, NCR soldiers fire with their guns and usually take few/no loses, 2. CL and NCR meet in close quarters or when the NCR cant move, CL swarms and cuts down the weak service Riflemen. every now and then their is something in between but in the end Many people with machetes AND guns vs few ppl with just guns the 1st will win.