His point was not whether you should be scolded for praising or criticizing the game (or a combination) but that there's a time and a place, and in this particular thread other than a few choice words on how the actual success of the game can potentially affect the game, all other concerns are irrelevant and belong elsewhere.

He's not a moron. He just isn't used to sandbox games. I mean really...

Hm.
Thank you for explaining.

-I was acknowledged as Dragonborn all through the world.
-Nothing changes in the Civil War - except which factions control which holds and towns, and ultimately have control over Skyrim.
-Plenty of people acknowledged my status as Arch-Mage of the College of Winterhold.
-So you complain about people not acknowledging your accomplishments, but then complain when NPC's acknowledge your accomplishments... Okay???

Depth:
-Perks make skills more in depth and more complex, allowing for far more character customization than Morrowind or Oblivion did.
-Questlines, while shorter in length, feature much more in depth and engaging individual quests.
-Major questlines now feature choices.
-Many quests and dungeons now feature puzzles to solve.
-Skills that were removed were replaced with something more complex and in depth. For example, losing Armorer, and being replaced with a fully fleshed out crafting system.
-In depth skills like Enchanting and Pickpocket made their return.
-Detailed worlds with both scripted and random events that make the world feel alive.
-Also a much more natural living world, with much more natural NPC interactions and conversations, inns that come alive with the music of bards and the patrons who enjoy their songs.
-2 main questlines instead of 1 (Main Quest and Civil War questlines, as opposed to simply Main Quest and side quests in Morrowind and Oblivion).
-More engaging gameplay mechanics that allow for new ways of playing and doing things, including the inclusion of dual wielding combat, and mixing and matching spell effects by combining spells, as well as all new effects and casting mechanics.

Plenty of depth in this game. Improvements over Morrowind and Oblivion in virtually every way.

You may not prefer the creative decisions made for Skyrim, but to sit and claim that the game has no depth is simply false.

-Lies.
"fetch me the mead companion""oh you should join the college then" Do not lie.
-Mmno you are not. Who acknowledges you as the dragonborn? Name two.
-More in depth and engaging quests? Have you played them? Recount their story please as there really isnt one and yet it is..better.
_major questlines feature choices? liar.


You know what. You are one of those people I could give a brick and you would claim it was the best brick you ever played.
Nothing you say has anything to do with the actual game as it is delivered on the disc one buys.
You are exaggerating and even lying. I have zero patience for this sort of mind(-) malarky.
I will not respond to you any more.

I think what I hate the most about Skyrim's guilds are the fact that in every single one its sort of like... zomg you're the messiah of our guild, here, involve yourself in this half-assed drama for a quest or two, and now you're the leader. And then... so what? They really do need to calm down with all of the messiah scenarios. Fine, I'm the savior of the world, but why do I have to be the savior of everything else as well? And why don't you care at all?

Like I said in my thread about streamlining, "I love Skyrim as much as a fat kid loves candy. However, the longer I play Skyrim, the more I miss whats not in it."

happy and a bit worried. happy because it guarantees future games and especially happy that PC sold so well, possibly even equalling xbox sales. hopefully the next game wont be a watered down console port.

im a bit worried because it might make them a bit apathetic just like bioware became apathetic with dragon age and whoever makes the CoD games clearly became apathetic with their series.

the best part is because skyrim had such huge sales im hoping that other developers sit up and take notice. there is nothing better than competition and if some more developers get involved in games like this we could see a new trend happening similar to how there was a glut of WW2 shooters a few years back, some better than others.

what i would like to see is another big budget first person sandbox rpg other than a TES game. skyrim was supposed to be "darker" and stuff but unfortunately i still get that candyland feel although not nearly as bad as oblivion was. i would love to see a DnD game on this scale or possible a singleplayer conan game (i hate MMOs.......i wont even play the star wars one and i love star wars).

an sand box dark messiah or deus ex game would make me a very happy person.

There are some that do. I've played a few quests already that had a choices in the quest or at the end and I haven't even played that many quests yet. Not to mentioned that one of the main quests is a huge choice (who to support in the civil war).

Now on the topic of the thread. I'm very happy that it is successful and I can't wait to see what they do with TES VI.

If you look at any other video game forum, they are all full of complaints aswell. Oblivion and Fallout 3 forums were packed with complaints, so why shouldn't Skyrim's? There is no such thing as the perfect game, except Starcraft.

Skyrim is the Champion!!!

Only been with the series since MW.
I'm happy for Bethesda and I'm happy for the many people who have been exposed to RPGs because of it (even if it is only RPG-lite).

This. Skyrim may not be what I wanted it to be, but its getting gaming out of the FPS rut it has been in. I like FPS but there should be a balanced amount of games in each gaming genre. More gamers will be introduced to RPGs because of Skyrim. Maybe this will lead to a time when RPG games with lots of depth are something that is more in demand. Who knows? Maybe people will appreciate more depth in their games? The people that do not appreciate that depth are not dumb, they are different. Different strokes people.

Besides, many developers are looking at Skyrim in awe. A single player sandbox RPG game without multiplayer got so many sales? Pretty much turned the industry around and sent it for a wtf lap around the water coolers. This is progress in my eyes. Even if the game feels unfinished to me.

The question in the back of my mind is whether success will be attributed to Skyrim's streamlined nature or not. I'd like more RPGs... but not ones as lacking as I feel Skyrim is in the actual RPG department.

That is the difference though isn't it? When people become interested in something they naturally want to know more about it and they like it to have more depth so they learn more about it. Imo this means that in a few years more gamers will want depth in their RPGs. Even if they were pulled into it by the streamlined nature of the game. They will grow to love the series and start making demands for the things many fans are lamenting now. This is all just my opinion though.

Skyrim is streamlined in an odd way. It is a world with MASSIVE amounts of depth to it. That depth is just sitting in the background. Waiting. Gamers know that. Whether or not they realize it that depth is helping them stay immersed in the game world more, than in many cases, they ever have been before. So while they do not ever need to plumb its depths they know it is their and that foundations subtly enhances their gameplay experience. Again just my opinion.

Quest Choices:

Paarthurnax. Choice.
In My Time Of Need. Choice.
Civil War. Choice. (Don't believe me? There is Main Quest - The Imperial Legion / Stormcloak negotiations at High Hrothgar. Choice

Acknowledgement of Accomplishments:

Oh, you must be the new recruit to the College of Winterhold.
You absorbed that dragon's soul - you must be... Dragonborn!

Better Questlines:

I found the College of Winterhold questline of exploring the ruins of Saarthal, and uncovering the mysteries of the Eye of Magus far more intriguing than running random errands for guild masters to get a recommendation.

Everything I said has to do with the game on the disc you buy. It's obvious you just want to be bitter, so be bitter, but take your bitterness elsewhere. I enjoy the game, and would like to come here and actually discuss the game, and not be subjected to the negativity of you and others.

-No, that does not mean don't talk about the things you don't like about the game. It means, I am sick of the elitist attitude that anytime anyone defends the game and expresses why the game is good, they are dismissed and considered nothing more than a mindless Bethesda defender. Go away.

Funny, I could have sworn it was the other way around!

Impriblicated

And theres a need for a variety of RPGs, some light, some deeper, which can all be enjoyed for what they are. I'd be prepared to bet most of the diehard RPers compaining about lack of depth began as newbs. I still remember the 1st D&D adventure I wrote and refereed. It was terrible, a real hacknslash dungeon crawl. The players were pretty awful too, little or very poor RP, but we had fun,and kept playing and got better at it. If we'd been thrown in at the deep end and started off playing MERP or Pendragon with a bunch of serious RPers they'd have hated us and we would've been lost, totally out of our depth.

As far as role playing goes, Skyrim presents you with as much depth and options as Fallout 3. Which is to say a little, but not that much. Admittedly though, the civil war quest is a lot more morally grey than anything in FO3, save for The Pitt, which doesn't really count here because it was a DLC. That does go with fantasy RPG's to an extent, where you are traditionally you're set on straight good or evil paths, and certainly looking at Oblivion, I'd say we got an improvement as far as choice goes (personally, I prefer the traditional Fallout 'morally grey' style of role playing that's quite prominent in NV, but I try not to hold this against TES to much).

Quest depth is a different matter. As Nehrim shows, you don't need choice to make a deep and engaging quest line; you need a well though out story with a well designed series of quests to fit around it. Unfortunately, I don't think Bethesda has improved at all here. They may have made better use of scripting than in previous titles, but the characters and dialogue are so dry and two dimensional that it's hard to feel attached to whats going on (except maybe for the daedric quests; they always seem to write those up well). I could count the memorable characters in the game on a single hand (and wouldn't need all my fingers). I would say that Skyrim is far worse than FO3 in this regard and miles behind something like NV. There's other issues as well, such as quest lines that feel stupidly short, particularly with some of the guilds (also an issue with FO3, not so much with NV and Oblivion). There's also the complete lack of an actual plot line with the College of Winterhold, which bugged me quite a bit.

Skyrim excels of course in a beautiful game world full of interesting places to explore. Unfortunately, that seems to be the only thing Bethesda are talented at.

I think it's spectacular.

Skyrim's success means that there will be a TES 6, and BGS will have lots of resources to throw at it.

I'm happy for them, they pretty much nailed it in terms of making RPGs popular. I did expect it to be more successful than Oblivion, but nowhere near these numbers. Very spectacular. On the other hand I'm a bit worried that this success will fuel their trend of simplifying the series. I think they already went too far with the process. Ok, they lowered the flight altitude to allow more passengers to come aboard, now please be kind and pull up before we hit the difficulty/originality/handholding ground.

*Puts on hipster glasses*
I liked RPGs before they were cool.

Very happy, but then I don't think having played the previous games makes my opinion more important than the views of 10 000 newcomers to the series. Still have Daggerfall; if I didn't like Skyrim's direction, they didn't forcibly remove it from my hard drive and send the Thalmor round to ensure Skyrim was the only ES game I still played. As it happens, I do like the direction, no it's not more of exactly the same, but I'll take it for what it is, the best damned action/rpg I've ever played.

It's the best game for PS3, ever, IMO, but they need to fix some stuff up first. Of course, it wouldn't have hurt anyone to make longer guild quest-lines, they feel like jokes right now.