This is a must read.
http://blog.brentknowles.com/2011/07/03/designing-frustration-part-2/

"When a game mechanic or rules system frustration crops up in playtesting as a bug, do consider other solutions than simply cutting it."
That one is for Bethesda...
"Certain RPG designers, in an attempt to make their games appeal to mainstream crowds have remove the system or attempted to ‘simplify’ it"
That too. Although he speaks about inventory system, its easy to see what happened since Morrowind.

So, again, fast travel in its current form could well be completely removed (in future games) to be replaced with player interactive travel systems that he has to work for. There is NOTHING rewarding in the current fast travel "click and appear" system.

"Beware of murkiness places in the design where a player hits a frustration and does not understand what they can do to minimize that frustration. This is not a problem with the feature itself… it is a problem of presentation"
^This. So much this! If a well thought out system that makes sense was in to begin with, nobody would object to not having "click & appear fast travel". The only TES that I've played that actually needed fast travel (click & appear style, not talking about true travel systems like Silt Striders, Teleports, and Carriages), was Daggerfall. And even its presentation worked out (the travel options menu). Since then you can travel across the map in a few minutes, making it completely redundant. But I don't want travel systems to go (too hard core), only to have the player influence the frustration level of using them (missing in Morrowind, frustration level - little as it was - was constant).

I often say that frustration is part of game design 101, but it have to be well designed of course. I don't understand why traveling should not be subject to it. It's an RPG for crying out loud. Always getting over powered, while not deliberately trying to exploit the game, I guess is one frustration. But I don't think it really counts for much...

I have plenty of willpower and full control of my choices in the game, again I am an advlt, independent, free-thinking person capable of making my own decisions. I don′t open up my map and sit there struggling with some inner demon or addiction that tells me to fast travel, I make my decision depending on what I want to do with my character at the moment, sometimes I want to go and explore a new area, sometimes I want to go to a specific location to do something else.

And secondly, my choice of how I play the game, has no impact on you whatsoever, no matter how many times I fast travel, none of your encounters or anything else of your content goes away....see I just did it, I fast traveled, and did some piece of code suddenly disappear from your system and forever delete that exciting encounter that you were expecting?

Really...how sad a person must be if they feel this game "forces" them to do anything beyond the Helgen Keep at the game's beginning.

Take control of your life. Take control of your game. Stop blaming something other than yourself because you haven't the ability to make a decision.

First...Have you seen the list of random encounters in Skyrim? Can you recall seeing even half of them? I, for one, cannot. Until I diminished my use of FT, I seen many more.

Secondly... My idea doesnt even come close to taking out FT. I still want it. I just want it to make sense. Can you explain why I can magically travel 10 miles with no consequence on any of my attributes/skills/story? Oh wait, in-game time changed, I forgot how in-game time plays a huge role in our characters.

also i'm pretty damn sure players made there own choices whether to fast travel or use magic to travel in morrowind than not and explore everywhere. So why should we implement a feature to do that when it's the players choice to?

And even if they don't want to encounter all the random things you can on that list so what? who cares. They're random and you don't always find them when traveling.

Well thats my point, is youll never find them by how FT is implemented now. I get that its optional, so that means its balanced automatically...

I just disagree with how the game from the beginning nudges you to use FT to travel to the next closest location, its a non-consequential and one-click action, which provides no depth, especially for those just starting out the game and are naive to all these random encounters (I was, and Ive played since Morrowind. At least the amount of them, that list suprised me.)

I am well aware of the consequences of my decisions yes, it's a conscious choice of weighing the pros and cons of fast traveling at any given time. I don't want to go over the list right now and ruin any future surprises, but I am quite satisfied with the amount of encounters so far.

The consequence of not fast traveling would be that I encounter a few enemies, all somewhat scaled to my level, which I defeat easily, and perhaps a traveller or two. I have the exact same attributes (full) as when I left, a minimal impact on the few skills I've used and if I am lucky I have gained a new quest to explore. So the only effect if I fast travel is that I miss out on some of the positive consequences (the skill gain and quest), seems like a balanced trade-off for using a shortcut feature to me.

The game tells you that because it gives you the option to get to your destination quicker. Also you're missing a vital point: no one wants to watch a LPer on youtube travel from one place to another for 10 videos and most of it are boring stuff we do by ourselves. So i choose to fast travel alot during those times cause it saves me time and everyone else.

Also you also haven't even responded to the fact YOU NEED TO FIND THE LOCATION FIRST ON THE MAP BY EXPLORING BEFORE YOU CAN FAST TRAVEL!!

You cannot fast travel to a location you have no discovered the game even tells you this when you're in game and attempt to. I cannot fast travel from helgen first time to solitude the game won't allow it. So it has limiters like I said. It's not like yours but it's good enough reason to not alter it anymore just because you did something in your game you enjoyed and want everyone else to be forced to use it.
I hate your idea, I don't like being limited by 10 fast travels per sleep or based on endurance. I walk enough in game as it is and have seen pretty much everything I can after 200+ hours.

leave fast travel as it is. If you want to walk then just walk. Those like me that want to fast travel once they've found a place, then let us do so.

Plus the horse carriage to help find a city quicker (like the silt riders & ships in Morrowind) is also a great idea.

Keep up the great work Beth

Nice holier-than-thou attitude you've got going for you. Did it ever occur to you that people just don't really care about those random encounters and would rather the ability to go straight from point A to point B right into action? Why exactly shouldn't they be able to do that? Because you don't deem that suitable? I could care less about immersion or depth it is a freaking video game. I have played RPGs and TES since Daggerfall. I love the games but come on now I am not going to larp and pretend like eating food in the game is necessary to my or my character's survival or anything else. I don't care if others do. That's the beauty of TES is that you can play it how YOU want. Taking away or placing limitations on that is bad in any regard.

This does make sense. It is balanced when you put it like that.

I just suggested an idea for those who have none of the random encounters to be nudged in the right direction regarding that. Because the only reason people dont have these random encounters is because they frequently FT. I just want a way to encourage first timers/casual gamers to WANT or NEED to explore, and reward them for it by the encounters. Because FT erases all that, and most first timers dont realize that until later. And with morrowind, it was the exact opposite, I realized that from the start. I guess I am just nostalgic in how morrowind treated explorers.

Well done, papercut ... You are the only one who actually rationalized the positives and negatives of the feature, and why it is balanced the way it is now. ( Besides the obvious, its optional, or you already explored that area so one click makes it ok. lol)

I have faith in some after all.

But papercut literally said that it's balanced because it's a choice and that players are aware of the consequences.

Which is what everyone else has said since you first posted this idea.

You've started to reveal that your intention in changing this mechanic is to make things more like Morrowind. If you want to play Morrowind, it's pretty cheap right now.

Okay I propose a compromise. Why not have three options after you do the first dungeon to either, 1. Allow fast Travel freely, 2. Allow fast traveling 5 times until you sleep again, or 3. Disable fast traveling. There everyone can be happy. Those who truly do not care about random encounters can choose 1. Those who care but still want to occasionally fast travel can pick 2. and those who hardcoe Role play or care A LOT about the random encounters/ don't plan to use fast travel at all can pick 3. Carriages however will still be available for any three options.

Which was about hardcoe which nobody got...

we can't control how people play an RPG that is open world and the game tells us "here's the world map, explore as you see fit and play the story or don't. It's your choice". Games like these brings in many gamers cause of the openness of the game and choices we make.

You don't put in 200 hours worth of a game without exploring and finding a portion of the random encounters, and I have. I enjoy the encounters that i came across and If I happen to find newer ones I didn't find before I'll be happy but FT can only be used on a previously found location you located through your adventures wandering skyrim.

Final Fantasy 7 was my first RPG(of any kind) and Final Fantasy game I played but I don't think all FF games should have similar contents FF7 had cause then there's no room for something new and different. Nostalia it is for me but I mostly liked all new FF games that came out since then.

There really is no point whatsoever in forcing this upon people. Many of us do not have the real-world time to actually travel on foot and besides, you can regulate this for yourself. If people want to fast travel, let 'em.

Nobody (especially you) weighed the positive consequences and negative consequences of FT, and why its balanced to choose either option. Or still even mentioned this would work in a hardcoe mode like FNV. I can easily quote you about a handful of times how many times you said "its optional". Good try, though

No one uses only fast travel to get to locations. If they did, they would never leave Helgen. It's not unrealistic, and you can explore any time you like.

Limiting the number of fast travels allowed in a day because your character gets tired isn't realistic unless your character also gets tired when you're not fast traveling.

Nobody got it because the word "hardcoe" never appears, it only references a change to the fast travel mechanic, and the title of the post is about "balancing" fast travel. There was nothing to get about "hardcoe" modes, until they were mentioned several pages into the thread.


Papercuts points were fairly self-evident, which is why papercut, and others, never brought them up before. No one thought that you had to be told that fast-traveling makes the player miss out on leveling up skills, because it's so unbelievably obvious. The main point that papercut, me, and pretty much everyone else on this thread has been making is that everyone is aware of what the trade-offs are for fast-traveling, and since it's optional, it makes no sense to force players who use it to make additional sacrifices.

Well that actually could be added, all this is ust an idea, Ill add that when walking for more than, lest say, 3 in game days, you also slow down and need to rest to get your normal speed up. I'll add that to my Op

If you don't find fast travelling balanced, don't fast travel. There isn't anything about the mechanic that needs to be "balanced". It boils down to personal preference; the option to specialize with perks is there, but you are not required to do so. Some people don't want/have the time to wander the wilderness for hours.

I, myself don't fast travel and I don't view it as something to be fixed. I'd rather Bethesda (and modders) work on new content.

No. If you get faster to a cave or not has nothing to do with your time. You can walk there, have fun along the way, and save the game to continue with it the next day.

Time does not matter when you can save and continue at any time.

He never proposed an optional difficulty mode like hardcoe, he was proposing a system that is standard all across the board when you click new game for the first time. That's the problem people had with this idea. If he brought up the idea of besthesda making another mode like hardcoe which we could select before leaving helgen to limit fast traveling similar to fallout new vegas did before leaving Doc Mitchell house, then yea I could agree to that cause I'd never use this at all but it would be optional and based on my choice. This was stated in a way that EVERYONE was forced to use it cause of "casuals" using fast traveling to complete the storymode rather than walk.

Yes, you two haters show your true colors.

Read the OP. Also the time when it was edited, so you dont think I just changed it.