[Nicole Mark]

Were you addressing your comment to someone I had quoted?

Yes, I was. Im using my phone so typings a bit difficult. My point is valid and DA:O has way more complicated features than skyrim

[Bambi]

Stop trying to justify a further dumbing down of TES games.

how is it dumbing down if u decide you want a change in playstyle after spending so much time on one character?

[Julie Serebrekoff]

It means including features intended to make the game easier for certain people. Like adding an in game help feature in a Zelda title

Usually when I hear "dumbing down" on these forums, it's synonymous with "making it not excruciating to play". The best designs are those which are simple and complex rather than convoluted. One example, interface. Would he suggest that computer games dumbed down because you no longer have to mount drives through the command prompt?





But even still, I don't see how reallocation has anything to do with dumbing down. It's simply a matter of convenience, which allows more time to be spent actually enjoying the game rather than having to replay the file from the beginning out of regret.

[Guy Pearce]

That's the problem nowadays. People want a quick fix to a mistake and want no consequences for their actions. Decisions in skyrim are permanent, as are decisions in life

no they are not no decision in life is permanent unless you want it to be

[Kim Bradley]

Usually when I hear "dumbing down" on these forums, it's synonymous with "making it not excruciating to play". The best designs are those which are simple and complex rather than convoluted. One example, interface. Would he suggest that computer games dumbed down because you no longer have to mount drives through the command prompt?





But even still, I don't see how reallocation has anything to do with dumbing down. It's simply a matter of convenience, which allows more time to be spent actually enjoying the game rather than having to replay the file from the beginning out of regret.

i can see where they are coming from if reallocation was added and easy to do but aslong as it were tedious and took time there wouldnt be a problem

[Peter P Canning]

Original thread: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1385575-why-perk-reallocation-will-never-happen-and-why-it-makes-zero-sense-at-all/

It feels like a 50:50 from what i have read in the previous thread, many do not want it because they feel it will ruin the remaining RPG aspects and immersion of the game, or it will ruin replay value, or use the argument that you can't be a master of multiple things in real life, so doing the same in a game would break it's realism, or it would ruin character archetypes, and there's 'they should be spending their time on more important things' and my favourite one, 'it's a choice you made so you just have to stick with it, just start a new game'.

My arguments and opinions about the above are:

1) It's a single player RPG, so if someone else wants to respec their perks how would it harm your experience? If you do not want to respec, then don't.

2) For the replay value issue and for those saying it will ruin it or destroy it, it won’t be ruining your replay value, but the person who chooses to respec, and even then i find if you have explored the majority of Skyrim on one character and done 80% of the quests the replay value for the game takes quite a dive, the more you restart the more it kills immersiveness, especially when you see the same events, hear the same npcs and have the same supposed 'radiant' quests appear every time in the same places.

3) For the realism argument? The moment you try to bring realism into a Fantasy RPG is the moment you lose credibility, there is nothing realistic about a Fantasy video game where you can use magic, run 24/7, never need to eat, be surrounded by fantastical creatures, not die from being out in the frozen cold 24/7, never needing to drink or use the washroom, not die from swimming in frozen waters, be able to carry 400-700+ lbs., interact with Gods..... Well you get the picture.

4) Character archetypes, see 1)

5) They already do that, but at the same time implement new systems into the game, look at horse combat, so i don't really see that as a valid argument.

6) Quite a few, myself included, have planned out our perks to a T, but due to bugs and glitches in game *Ash Piles, certain perks not working; Deflect Arrow is an example, and the Atronach perk absorbing 30% of certain spells you try to cast, and some of your shouts*, vagueness of said perk(s) and the Necromage perk not effecting other perks if you took them before you got Necromage and more, It would be nice to have the option to respec without having to lose tons of hours on our most beloved character(s).

It would just be another option there if you want to use it, just like Fast Travel, and, if introduced in the form of DLC, could include a fun story along with it, include something to spend Septims on *which Skyrim lacks*, could produce multiple new quests, potentially revive old dungeons you have previously explored and many more ideas.

So people, would you like to have the option to respec? And if not, why not? Granted it's in the same category as Fast Travel back when Oblivion was released...

It's a choice, an option; you don't have to use it if you don't want too.


P.S: No responses like "i don't like it because it's for lazy people" or "it will affect my game because i didn't want it in" without explaining why and how it will affect it, or any answers with the tone of "I don't want it, so no one should have it" even though it is your choice weather you use it or not. If you’re not going to respond in a sensible logical manner and not explain why you do not want it, don't reply at all.




I look forward to reading your thoughts and opinions on this

Everything you said I agree with. Fantasy RPG. SP. There's two solid reasons to allow re-spec. The only counter arguments I'm reading are like you listed "dont be lazy" "start a new game" Why? Why go through hours and hours of gameplay again just to, for example (in the extreme), switch from a maxed out Destruction tree to a maxed out Conjuration tree? There are a lot of casual players out there who just love playing the game as it is and don't have time to make 10 million legit lvl 81's like most of the "no re-spec option" people.

Now, don't get me wrong. I respect all opinions on this matter and I enjoy engaging in the different pros and cons involved with the topics being discussed, but really, no more "Hurr hurr start a new game trololol" stuff.

[Stephanie Kemp]

how is it dumbing down if u decide you want a change in playstyle after spending so much time on one character?

Because it takes away any importance to the decisions you make. A player would no longer have to be concerned if a perk fits into his or her play style. As pointed out earlier, it could also be abused quite easily to overpower your character. There need to be consequences to your decisions otherwise where is the fun? Without consequences the game would become boring quickly. Enough with hand holding, allowing players to take mulligans, telling them exactly where to go with a magic compass, it's ridiculous.

[Dalia]

Everything you said I agree with. Fantasy RPG. SP. There's two solid reasons to allow re-spec. The only counter arguments I'm reading are like you listed "dont be lazy" "start a new game" Why? Why go through hours and hours of gameplay again just to, for example (in the extreme), switch from a maxed out Destruction tree to a maxed out Conjuration tree? There are a lot of casual players out there who just love playing the game as it is and don't have time to make 10 million legit lvl 81's like most of the "no re-spec option" people.

Now, don't get me wrong. I respect all opinions on this matter and I enjoy engaging in the different pros and cons involved with the topics being discussed, but really, no more "Hurr hurr start a new game trololol" stuff.

exactly and i bet you all the "no re-allocation" people also have all the time in the world to make endless amounts of new characters

[glot]

That's the problem nowadays. People want a quick fix to a mistake and want no consequences for their actions. Decisions in skyrim are permanent, as are decisions in life

Ah but Skyrim is a video-game played on a screen that has nothing to do with the larger picture that is life. It is an escape from life in a way. So, why bring the casual adventurer back to reality by limiting his options?

[phillip crookes]

Because it takes away any importance to the decisions you make. A player would no longer have to be concerned if a perk fits into his or her play style. As pointed out earlier, it could also be abused quite easily to overpower your character. There need to be consequences to your decisions otherwise where is the fun? Without consequences the game would become boring quickly. Enough with hand holding, allowing players to take mulligans, telling them exactly where to go with a magic compass, it's ridiculous.

yes but as many people have pointed out make limitations as to what you can undo and the effects of undoing....like lock certain perk trees i.e smithing and ecnhanting...but if people want to change their playstyle or slightly alter it they should beable to

and re-doing all the same quest would get boring

[Svenja Hedrich]

Because it takes away any importance to the decisions you make. A player would no longer have to be concerned if a perk fits into his or her play style. As pointed out earlier, it could also be abused quite easily to overpower your character. There need to be consequences to your decisions otherwise where is the fun? Without consequences the game would become boring quickly. Enough with hand holding, allowing players to take mulligans, telling them exactly where to go with a magic compass, it's ridiculous.

Don't we have enough hand holding in world already? People make mistakes. Its part of being human. But in the end, you'll make the right decision. When you fall you get back up and try again. Would an honorable Nord want a mulligan? I think not

[Raymond J. Ramirez]

Usually when I hear "dumbing down" on these forums, it's synonymous with "making it not excruciating to play". The best designs are those which are simple and complex rather than convoluted. One example, interface. Would he suggest that computer games dumbed down because you no longer have to mount drives through the command prompt?

But even still, I don't see how reallocation has anything to do with dumbing down. It's simply a matter of convenience, which allows more time to be spent actually enjoying the game rather than having to replay the file from the beginning out of regret.

Elements you think of as 'excruciating' might be something that RPG fans really like. The more people who play TES who don't really know what an RPG is, the more we get requests for things that move the series away from traditional role playing and more into an action game. I don't think it's wrong for them to want that, but at the same time, TES is supposed to be an RPG game and it's earlier fans were largely RPG nerds like me. We keep losing elements we love so that casual gamers, or gamers who are more into FPS or MMO's can get into the series and Bethesda can sell more units. Again, I understand that, but for people to dismiss the people who love games like D&D, and loved TES because it brought D&D type adventuring to life is, well, not cool.

[David John Hunter]

No days. Next thing you know, you only need one button the combat button.

[Leanne Molloy]

Again, until someone can explain how you would avoid abuse of reallocation then this is a dead subject. It would be too easy to abuse even if you tried to make it more difficult.

Put all perks into smithing, make your awesome OP armor, then change it up and move those perks into enchanting, create OP weapons, now change it up again, put your perks into one handed weapons. Now you are very OP and the reallocation system is abused. People would do this, a lot.

[le GraiN]

Again, until someone can explain how you would avoid abuse of reallocation then this is a dead subject. It would be too easy to abuse even if you tried to make it more difficult.

Put all perks into smithing, make your awesome OP armor, then change it up and move those perks into enchanting, create OP weapons, now change it up again, put your perks into one handed weapons. Now you are very OP and the reallocation system is abused. People would do this, a lot.

as i already said beth could lock certain perk trees

[GRAEME]

Elements you think of as 'excruciating' might be something that RPG fans really like. The more people who play TES who don't really know what an RPG is, the more we get requests for things that move the series away from traditional role playing and more into an action game. I don't think it's wrong for them to want that, but at the same time, TES is supposed to be an RPG game and it's earlier fans were largely RPG nerds like me. We keep losing elements we love so that casual gamers, or gamers who are more into FPS or MMO's can get into the series and Bethesda can sell more units. Again, I understand that, but for people to dismiss the people who love games like D&D, and loved TES because it brought D&D type adventuring to life is, well, not cool.

In this case, the excruciating part is grinding through hours and hours and hours and hours of quests because of one mistake. Part of the fun in RPGs is trying new builds and working with the mechanics in different ways, but if it's unreasonably inaccessible, it's just not fun to do.

Certainly, a totally different type of character (barbarian => mage) would be such a dramatic change that a new character is in order. But if I'm a Nightblade who's discovered that those extra 4 points of Stealth really weren't worth it after all, I would want to move those to Illusion for stealth-casting; not very demanding.

This is why I think my idea of de-leveling would be quite reasonable. You still have to work for the character you want, but without the mindless tedium of grinding quests.

[LijLuva]

saying that you wouldnt beable to fix a mistake that you made on your perk tree is like saying you wouldnt beable to fix a mistake you made on your characters appearance...in both situations as long as something is locked there is nothing wrong with it if u dont wana use the service dont your choice but others may

[Steph]

In this case, the excruciating part is grinding through hours and hours and hours and hours of quests because of one mistake. Part of the fun in RPGs is trying new builds and working with the mechanics in different ways, but if it's unreasonably inaccessible, it's just not fun to do.

Certainly, a totally different type of character (barbarian => mage) would be such a dramatic change that a new character is in order. But if I'm a Nightblade who's discovered that those extra 4 points of Stealth really weren't worth it after all, I would want to move those to Illusion for stealth-casting; not very demanding.

This is why I think my idea of de-leveling would be quite reasonable. You still have to work for the character you want, but without the mindless tedium of grinding quests.

If you've put four points towards a particular tree THEN realize it was a mistake, well, that is just too bad. I spent a few perk points on crap I realized I didn't need but the idea of changing those perks never occurred to me. I just wrote them off and don't lose any sleep over it because I am responsible for the decision I made.

Not everyone gets a trophy. There are winners and losers. The mentality nowadays is we shouldn't keep score but that isn't how the real world works and it's not how an RPG game should work either.

To quote from one of the funniest movies of all time.. "They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into, I say, let'em crash".

[Yonah]

exactly and i bet you all the "no re-allocation" people also have all the time in the world to make endless amounts of new characters

Says this person..

Characters;
Katarina: Level 21 Nord, Werewolf Paladin, Skills: One-Handed, Heavy Armor, Archery, Restoration, Faction: Companions, Dawnguard, Deity: Stendar
Isis: Level 81 Khajiit, Marksman, Skills: Universal Master, Faction: Companions, College of Winterhold, Dawnguard, Deity: Kynareth
Viktoria: Level 38 Imperial, Warrior/Vampire Lord, Skills: One-Handed, Light Armor, Block, Archery, Faction: Vampires, Thieves Guild, Deity: Nocturnal
Dawnguard Beta Tester

[Ricky Rayner]

Says this person..

so what i have 3 characters and ive had the game since release date 1 in each of the 3 paths and one of them is recent...actually day of dawnguard beta release....since your so against re-allocation how many characters do you have?

[Queen of Spades]

Again, until someone can explain how you would avoid abuse of reallocation then this is a dead subject. It would be too easy to abuse even if you tried to make it more difficult.

Put all perks into smithing, make your awesome OP armor, then change it up and move those perks into enchanting, create OP weapons, now change it up again, put your perks into one handed weapons. Now you are very OP and the reallocation system is abused. People would do this, a lot.

Nonsense. No matter what you do in this game, you end up OP anyways in nearly every circumstance unless you are deliberately attempting to make a character that is entirely suboptimal or borderline unplayable, and even that is very difficult to do.

It's not a matter of preventing people from becoming OP, it is only a matter of time before someone becomes OP regardless unless they take steps to purposefully limit themselves via frivolous self imposed restrictions. There is nothing challenging about this game, there is no true player agency or consequences, you are arguing for the preservation of something that simply is not there to begin with.

Nearly every game coming out that has any form of level and ability based progression has some form of skill reset as a form of money sink, even the terrible Kingdom of Amalur had it.

[rheanna bruining]

so what i have 3 characters and ive had the game since release date 1 in each of the 3 paths

And I'm married with 4 kids and have 1 character and won't be creating any more. The point is, your comment isn't accurate. At least not in all cases.

[Yvonne]

Perk reallocation is called starting over or starting from an earlier save. I don't know why they'd waist time on this when there's still a gathering of Louis LeTrushes in front of Whiterun... one of them is buried waist deep in on the main road no less. I'm beginning to regret I even stole the horse for him now.

[Jennifer Munroe]

If you've put four points towards a particular tree THEN realize it was a mistake, well, that is just too bad. I spent a few perk points on crap I realized I didn't need but the idea of changing those perks never occurred to me. I just wrote them off and don't lose any sleep over it because I am responsible for the decision I made.

Not everyone gets a trophy. There are winners and losers. The mentality nowadays is we shouldn't keep score but that isn't how the real world works and it's not how an RPG game should work either.

To quote from one of the funniest movies of all time.. "They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into, I say, let'em crash".

I wonder which one of us is more into RPGs then. It seems I care more about my stats than you do.

[yermom]

Nonsense. No matter what you do in this game, you end up OP anyways in nearly every circumstance unless you are deliberately attempting to make a character that is entirely suboptimal or borderline unplayable, and even that is very difficult to do.

It's not a matter of preventing people from becoming OP, it is only a matter of time before someone becomes OP regardless unless they take steps to purposefully limit themselves via frivolous self imposed restrictions. There is nothing challenging about this game, there is no true player agency or consequences, you are arguing for the preservation of something that simply is not there to begin with.

Nearly every game coming out that has any form of level and ability based progression has some form of skill reset as a form of money sink, even the terrible Kingdom of Amalur had it.

To quote you, "nonsense". With that mentality, we might as well just give everyone all the perks to start, the best weapons and armor. And while I agree with some of what you are saying, you are just being overly pessimistic. I mean, you make it sound like.. "well what does it matter, you end up too strong anyway so lets just give everyone what the want no matter how silly". Sorry but as disappointed as I am in the continued direction of TES games away from RPG elements, I am not ready to take that stand.