I don't know if I understand the graphics arguement. How is it an issue. If I remember right, in OB you only had one graphic even with multiple spell effects. The highest/strongest effect showed, the others didn't. I don't think I would expect a fire, ice, shock spell to show all effects. It would be kind of cool I guess, but is it really needed? Just show the highest effect and be done with it.

I would have been fine if they capped the number of spell effects or power, but kept spellmaking. It made for unique spells and roleplay aspects. Not just uber spells of death.

And yet they removed some core RPG elements, destroyed guilds and totally designed it for consoles.....

Fixed.

TES was always more action oriented than, say, Baldur's Gate, you still have to aim yourself, you still have dodge actively, not relying on pure numbers alone, your attack speed depends on how fast you can press buttons.
This was the case in all TES games.



Also the blame pulling in this thread is simply hilarious.

I feel like I have to kinda come in and outline I'm not one to bash 'casual gamers' as it may have seemed I was agreeing with the idea. I feel paranoid today and I wouldn't want anyone to mistake me for an idiot.

Personally I have no idea how graphics might affect the ability to have spellcrafting. I figured that since I'm not a game developer and that Todd Howard apparently said it then it could be possible.


As for whether he/they made the changes to tailor to the mainstream gamer or not, I'm not in possession of the details of what the majority do or don't like so I have to go on what I can see in the media and from other people around me in my life. Having said that, I find it hard to believe that most people want the level of depth which would make a game an RPG rather than just an action with rpg elements.
I mean, we could all be wrong. It is, however, really difficult to see the issue from a different perspective when all the evidence we can see is to the contrary.

So, asides from the people who are coming out and cursing 'casual gamers', you don't have to assume that we're all ignorant or hateful. We're simply worried that a type of game we've held dear may be on the decline.

Telling people to go play a different game is also rather unhelpful. I'm sure they can reach that conclusion themselves.


Sorry about this post, don't mean to come over weird. I do have paranoia problems and I actually literally never leave the house (I get looked after) so I tend to go OMG. Sometimes even completely misunderstand the tone of a discussion.

We're not saying such people are idiots but that game developers think they are by making the game too simple and alienating some of the core elements. Why would you want to play a game that tells you where to go all the time and then have the dialogue contradicted itself by saying where to go? Kingdoms of Amalur does this as well.

Why would you write dialogue that tells you where to go and where a place is when the marker always does? it's a contradiction made so devs basically play the game for you because they think you're stupid.

maybe DLC will include spell combos, that would be cool

Half64
I totally see where you are coming from. I don't think everyone involved in the game thinks that we're idiots though. I think that a lot of people prefer to have pointers. Can you turn them off? If you can then there is the answer. I think it is nice to be able to decide whether you will follow an arrow or head out on your own. If you don't want to know how to get somewhere then unmark the quest until you reach it.

I think in general developers don't get complete free-reign over what they make unless they are completely self-sufficient entity. No? I'm unsure of how it works but that's how I imagine it.

So spellmaking is still removed because the unwashed non-RPG player masses cannot understand the depth and complexity of such system?

Really?


At least, the "unbalanced" argument made some sense, but this is just ridiculous.



And no, a marker on your map does not instantly transport you to the place, nor is it a contradiction any more than telling you go to a certain city then after looking at the map you see the city's name on it...

No; maybe the spellmaking was removed simply because considered irrelevant and misplaced in the new game mechanics adopted in Skyrim.

Sure spellmaking is important ,but why don't you look at the positive side ? you've dual casting and dual wielding now and perhaps all those complaints will culminate in the spellmaking big comeback.

But i'm sure that then there will be something else to complain about

We could have had all of that PLUS spell making. There is NO reason to remove it other than Todd and the dev team not wanting to do it.

Agreed. Before we even knew the system's in's and outs we were theorycrafting possible ways to implement it. I'm sure someone at Bethesda was doing the same thing until they were told it was being cut and that was final.

Theorycrafting is totally different from actually implementing something. I can't think of a terribly practical way to implement a spell-making system, given the potential for a huge number of weird dual-casting problems that would come up. I appreciate that some people used the system to "RP" some specific spell that did a ton of stuff, but for the most part, it was just used to create absurdly powerful god-mode spells. And since not being able to create absurdly powerful god-mode spells doesn't ruin the fun of the game for the vast majority of people (who don't want to just run around burning everything in one shot), I'm glad they spent time on other things.

The dual casting is easy to fix, they already have it fixed for us. That simple fix is that you can only Dual Cast spells if they are the same thing. Otherwise each spell is cast normally. And while I admit I don't know even the basics of programming I can still design a system that should work out fine.

The dual-casting system is easy to work with as is, because they have it set to not dual-cast different spells (which is also why there aren't 20 different levels of fireball, etc. this time around). The problem is that created spells might have the same exact effect combined with totally different effects, which could lead to severe problems. Or trying to dual-cast a created spell that pulls from multiple magic schools if you've perked dual-casting in some, but not all, of the schools being used.

I believe they scrapped it so they could have more freedom with the differetn effects of the spells. Personally I do not miss it much, but I'm not gonna argu against adding it again.

Both of those are again, easy fixes. The first thing you present isn't a matter of spell effects, it's a matter of Spell IDs. They have to have the same Spell ID to be dual cast afaik. I haven't really played a mage (mainly due to the severe lack of spells in general, combined with no spellmaking) so I can't say that for sure. But that makes sense to me that they would do it by ID rather than effect.

As for the other thing you mention, it could easily just add up the cost of each effect separately, checking them against the perks you have, and then applying it for a total cost and output, or it can just do a simple "If you don't have Dual Cast for a school and the spell has ANY effect from that school, no Dual Cast for that spell." Either way would work fine, and I would actually rather it be done the second way than the first way, as it would force you to perk accordingly for it.

And I just want to say now that I'm in no way just arguing to spite you, having a healthy discussion about game design is a passion of mine, especially when it is a series and a game aspect I am so passionate about. I was never the "OMG SPELLMAKING IS TEH HAXORS GOD MODE!!" player, I was just the person wondering why I, as a person with a huge magicka pool and a mastery of every spell school, had to carry a staff with a measly 13 charges to cast a spell that did a high amount of damage in Oblivion. Then I found how awesome spellmaking could be.

Yes, there is no custom spellcrafting. It's not news, get over it. I don't want to sound like a jerk but it's really been discussed (and cussed) many, many times.

I definitely agree that spellmaking could serve a useful purpose in Oblivion, but I think that had a lot more to do with the basic spell system being weak (as you pointed out) without it.

Skyrim fixes this for me (in every school except Destruction), with spells becoming truly powerful as you invest more time into a specific school. You actually get the feeling of being significantly more powerful as you level up, and Master level spells actually earn the name. I don't see a need for spellmaking in a system that doesn't eventually become completely ineffective.

Yep really.

Well, from what I have seen (like I said, I haven't played as a mage myself yet, but I've watched several people play mages on Youtube and in real life), the main benefit as far as destruction goes is you wind up with every spell costing nothing so you can just spam away (which is what I am guessing you were referring to). One of the best parts about Spellmaking was learning how to stack different spells in the right order depending on how the situation require (assuming you avoid the 1 sec paralyze, drain health 10 points for 90 second spells that would be considered "god mode")

If you say so....

To the people who are bemoaning the presence of these such threads, so what?

People complaining for more features in the game will mean a superior product in the future. Plus, it's not a small minority of people, it's pretty much everyone. So, everyone complain away.

Spell crafting added option and choice to being a mage, there is no reason for it being removed other than Bethesda did not want to add it.
Spell creation could have been used with the charge and cast spells they have in Skyrim.
Then we have lost I do not know how many spell types several in fact and they should have been in the base game.

I shelved Skyrim indefinitely. The lack of Spellmaking has killed Skyrim for me because I'm always running into situations where I'd use it...

I want to make a fireball with a smaller radius, so I have less of a chance to get a fine for hitting a friendly.
I want to make a spell with a 15' radius of Freanzyand top it with a 5' radius Fear spell.
I want shorter flames over a wider area in front of me.
I want an Ice Storm spell that stays near me.

I have run into what could have been too often to stand it any longer, the game lack specialization for spells irritates me constantly.

The magic system was poorly designed and removing spellmaking is a signature aspect of that poor design.

Spellmaking was let go because of the graphics- enjoy the view.

The number one deficit for me is plodding across it. No fast speed on console, no jumping.