[Penny Courture]

The dovakhin escapes because the game railroads him into doing it. It's not that you can choose to help the people with the hands tied and all but the options menu disabled!

And Ulfric is "railroaded" by his scripted behavior. The point is, this fact is as much a part of the dovahkiin's characterization as Ulfric's actions are of his.

I made my mind? Sure: after 300+ hrs and 5 different characters I think I've all the rights and reason to express a well funded opinion on the story narrated in the game. It's so hypocritical to express a view that's different from yours?

It's hypocritical to consider Ulfric's actions reprehensible unless you also consider the dovahkiin a selfish coward. If that's how you see your character, fine and well.

[Jessica Stokes]

Its sad that this is no longer a septim empire. Even Tiber himself said that the empire needed to come to an end. Not because its bad, its just like the kalpas, its born run strong , the when it weakens, it dies so it can ne reborn.

Bit honestly, the empire isnt some unfalable thing. If it werent for akatosh and azura and a few random prisoners, the empire would have been done in long ago. I think that the empire after 30 yrs needs to pay for its mistakes because if you look at it, whereever the empire trys to sheltor, it also infects. Sometimes u just gotta buck up and amputate the part thats infected so u can get stronger.

[lauren cleaves]

Dunmer have Vvardenfell. Get the F%#k out of skyrim.

Not anymore, no. Whatever part of it was fit to live in (and there wasn't much of that to begin with) got destroyed with the Red Mountain's eruption.

[Elea Rossi]

I think Ulfric is just power hungry, a couple of lines of dialogue would suggest this, such as when he claimes it's inevitable he'll become High King when the player completes the Stormcloak questline (it's the way he says it), in saying that I believe the Stormcloaks goals to be pure, I wish I'd sided with them instead of the Empire, after all it's not as if the Emperor isn't just power hungry as well. Skyrim needs to be independent, fend for itself like Hammerfell, the Empire has betrayed Skyrim like it betrayed Hammerfell, they can't be trusted. I'm now a weary, bitter veteran who regrets his actions in the Civil War.


The Dunmer can f off to Cyrodiil, that's the cosmopolitan racial metling pot of Tamriel.. Skyrim is the home of the Nords, other races don't belong there, otherwise it will just end up another Cyrodiil.

[Javaun Thompson]

well the reason why ulfric is cocky the moots gonna go his way, is that thru out the civil war the opposing side jarls have been replaced. Its more along the lines he knows he gonna hit the jackpot because he bought every ticket type thing.

Also the empire does the same thing to keep elisif on the throne as well.

[TOYA toys]

That sixy voice.

I really do believe he is fighting for what he believes is right, in the same way Hitler was. Both were/are trying to unite a country under any means necessary.
He only seemed evil because we were on the opposing side, which is is how it ALWAYS is.

You kinda have to throw in his attempt to exterminate the Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Czechs and whatnot, and the subsequent massacre of millions of helpless civilians when you say Hitler was only evil because.... There is no comparison between Hitler and Ulfric except for maybe a strong charismatic presence.

[Jessica Lloyd]

You can't blame Hitler alone for the crimes commited by Germany while under the rule of the Nazi Party, he's actually a pretty fascinating individual if you study him more in depth.. Remember he had to appease various factions within the Nazi party with the anti-semitism, he himself stated the massacre of them was un-German in Mein Kampf as it was not honourable.

[sarah taylor]

Ulfric never says anything racist at all although some of his soldiers **are** racist.

[Schel[Anne]FTL]

You can't blame Hitler alone for the crimes commited by Germany while under the rule of the Nazi Party, he's actually a pretty fascinating individual if you study him more in depth.. Remember he had to appease various factions within the Nazi party with the anti-semitism, he himself stated the massacre of them was un-German in Mein Kampf as it was not honourable.

Are you [censored] kidding me? Are you seriously saying Hitler isn't responsible for all of the atrocities committed by Germany in World War II?

[Rach B]

They aren't the owners of the voice. It's not their call on how it gets used. The voice was originally a WAR weapon. One nord(Jorgen) got his feelings hurt a while back and decided, no one gets to use the voice except in the way I want them to. He then shouted down all the other voice users at the time until they had to give up.

Thing is, if you learn the Voice all by yourself - sure. Use it in any way you wish.

However, Ulfric was trained as a Greybeard, and he swore an oath to use it only in True Needs. Needless to say, he didn't keep to his word.

[Janine Rose]

Are you [censored] kidding me? Are you seriously saying Hitler isn't responsible for all of the atrocities committed by Germany in World War II?

No I said not solely responsible.

[Steve Fallon]

is it just me or do you think Bethesda is hating on the dunmer? 1st they burn theyre home with the events of red year then they make all the nords racist towards them

I think the whole red year thing was just done to spite Morrowind fans who have complained that no game since had lived up to its glory.

[NEGRO]

Thing is, if you learn the Voice all by yourself - sure. Use it in any way you wish.

However, Ulfric was trained as a Greybeard, and he swore an oath to use it only in True Needs. Needless to say, he didn't keep to his word.

First of all, we don't know that Ulfric swore any oath, AFAIK it's an assumption only. It's possible that any oath involved would only be administered when a student reached advlthood and made the decision to stay and join the order. Ulfric might have come of age and then made his decision to leave before he was ever officially inducted. In fact his own dialogue regarding his training supports this, as he says "I was to become a Greybeard," not "I was a Greybeard."

Secondly, he was sent to the Greybeards when he was a child. Are you obligated to keep every promise you made when you were 10, 12, 14 years old? Are you obligated to adhere for the rest of your life to the decisions that were made for you by other people when you were too young to have any real choice in the matter? If the Vatican chooses you for the priesthood when you're eight and your family sends you off to seminary, do you still have to live by their rules until you die even though you grow up and decide that kind of life isn't for you?

Third, any "obligation" to live by the Way of the Voice applies to the Greybeards only. It is a requirement if one wants to become and remain a member of their order, period, because they consider it mandatory behavior if you're going to be one of them. For everybody else, it's a choice, just like interpreting what constitutes "True Need" is a choice that every individual has to make for him/herself. What the Greybeards think about it is not applicable to anyone who is not a Greybeard or no longer interested in becoming one, whether that person is Dragonborn or not. They may demand that students make a commitment to live by the Way while they are living there and being taught, but unless they are willing to keep those individuals in High Hrothgar by force if necessary for the remainder of their lives, they have to be willing to accept the possibility that those individuals may someday choose to leave and use what they've learned in ways of which the Greybeards don't approve. That goes double if they are choosing to teach a mere child who may grow up and decide that the life others chose for him is not what he wants, or not one that he can continue living given what is happening in the rest of the world.

Ulfric's obligation to follow the Way of the Voice ended when he left High Hrothgar, because living by it anywhere else is a choice, not a duty.

[Dan Scott]

Ulfric's obligation to follow the Way of the Voice ended when he left High Hrothgar, because living by it anywhere else is a choice, not a duty.

Wait, you criticise me for speculating and assuming, but where did you pick that up from?

[Ryan Lutz]

For me, the problem isn't challenging the High King and killing him. It was a little slimy and dangling on the line of betrayal but it's Nord culture. I have my two cents on Nord culture but it's their culture and to each their own. In their culture, what Ulfric did was acceptable.

However, my problem is Ulfric's racism. High Elf racism? Fine. It's the Thalmor, I understand. It still might not be right but the wounds the Thalmor inflicted are deep. But racism towards Dark Elves, the one type of elves that aren't subjugated under the Aldmeri Dominion, is unfounded and pointless. Same with Argonians.

Not to mention that Ulfric's stance on, "Victory or Sovnegarde" somehow didn't apply when he was ambushed and about to die, most likely outnumbered.

As for the Greybeards. Any Nord can study the way of the Voice if they have the zeal. Greybeards apparently teach anyone a few shouts.

[Prue]

Geez, how about we rename this thread "Ulfic is evil, and you're stupid if you don't agree." This isn't an Ulfric Stormcloak thread, this is a thread for empire sympathizers to vent out their dislike to the guy.

The empire is weak, and they're bowing the the Aldmeri Dominion. Yeah, you all may say the empire is just biding its time, but there's nothing to really indicate the empire is going to show some backbone against the Thalmor and the Dominion. The enemy is freely walking all around Tamriel, still assassinating those who speak out against the Dominion, and are still very much accomplishing their goals, only not so quickly.

So you all say Ulfric is a Nazi, a butt, and etc. But you know, he's at least showing some backbone against the Thalmor. Also, a weak empire is going to do nothing but further weaken everyone else. With Hammerfell gone, the empire now only has a shattered and barely there Morrowind, a bunch of backstabbing bretons of High Rock who are hardly a country, and a very pissed off Skyrim. A wake up call is needed in the empire, and no amount of "we need to stick together" is going to fix it, when clearly those on the top are going to continue to further weaken the empire.

Also, someone needs to tell Ulfric my Saxhleel cannot join the Stormcloaks, let alone make them a thane and be one of his top soldiers.

EDIT: Forgot to address his captivity. Remember, the guy was being tortured by the Thalmor. He's lucky they didn't skin him alive and stick hot pokers everywhere. He did hold out, and the guy would have been around his mid 20s. He did well enduring torture from the Thalmor as a youngin.

And with Markharth, the fact is, the Reachmen are and have always been a giant thorn on everyone's side. They've been openly hostile to everyone since forever. In addition, the empire did nothing at all to protect that area during the Great War.

And with Markharth, the fact is, the Reachmen are and have always been a giant thorn on everyone's side. They've been openly hostile to everyone since forever. In addition, the empire did nothing at all to protect that area during the Great War.

Geez, how about we rename this thread "Ulfic is evil, and you're stupid if you don't agree." This isn't an Ulfric Stormcloak thread, this is a thread for empire sympathizers to vent out their dislike to the guy. The empire is weak, and they're bowing the the Aldmeri Dominion. Yeah, you all may say the empire is just biding its time, but there's nothing to really indicate the empire is going to show some backbone against the Thalmor and the Dominion. The enemy is freely walking all around Tamriel, still assassinating those who speak out against the Dominion, and are still very much accomplishing their goals, only not so quickly. So you all say Ulfric is a Nazi, a butt, and etc. But you know, he's at least showing some backbone against the Thalmor. Also, a weak empire is going to do nothing but further weaken everyone else. With Hammerfell gone, the empire now only has a shattered and barely there Morrowind, a bunch of backstabbing bretons of High Rock who are hardly a country, and a very pissed off Skyrim. A wake up call is needed in the empire, and no amount of "we need to stick together" is going to fix it, when clearly those on the top are going to continue to further weaken the empire. Also, someone needs to tell Ulfric my Saxhleel cannot join the Stormcloaks, let alone make them a thane and be one of his top soldiers. EDIT: Forgot to address his captivity. Remember, the guy was being tortured by the Thalmor. He's lucky they didn't skin him alive and stick hot pokers everywhere. He did hold out, and the guy would have been around his mid 20s. He did well enduring torture from the Thalmor as a youngin. And with Markharth, the fact is, the Reachmen are and have always been a giant thorn on everyone's side. They've been openly hostile to everyone since forever. In addition, the empire did nothing at all to protect that area during the Great War.

Did nothing? The Empire was left in complete devastation with the legions decimated and the remnants needed on the Dominion's border to deter another invasion. Despite that, the Empire had been raising a force to retake Markarth whilst conducting negotiations to resolve the issue all together in hopes that force wouldn't be necessary in order to conserve their already decimated military arm. Ulfric knew of this, but attacked anyways in an attempt to gain political ground before the negotiations could be completed or the new legion mobilized to sufficient strength. Hes damned lucky that the attack didn't end in disaster for his men, no doubt due to his abuse of the voice. We can easily see his ulterior motivations when he roused the population with anti-Imperial sentiments immediately after the engagement despite knowing the truth, and sized power in many regions that he used to great effect during the civil war. Ulfric knew what he was planning, he wanted control of Skyrim and be elevate his station to High King.

I don't blame Ulfric for what happened while he was captured by the Thalmor, and anyone who does is being very unfair. He was tortured and it was only after a long and painful time spent in captivity that he broke, and only then revealing just enough to get the Thalmor to stop, although they made him think that the information Ulfric had given up led directly to the sacking of the Imperial city.

The Empire didn't bow to the Dominion, they fought tooth and nail against them, sacrificing half of the Imperial province and even the Imperial city itself, just so they could stand up to a bully. In the end they lost the war and negotiated based on false intelligence that led the to belive that the Dominion had been more powerful than they really had been.

[Strawberry]

Wait, you criticise me for speculating and assuming, but where did you pick that up from?

Logical conclusion, IMO. The Way of the Voice is a philosophy espoused and practiced by the Greybeards, and that is the beginning and the end of its relevance. It is not inextricably linked with possession or use of the Thu'um, not with regard to the Dragonborn or anybody else who is not a Greybeard. Ulfric is not a Greybeard, and there is no firm indication that he ever was one, only that somebody chose to have him go to High Hrothgar and study with them to that end. He cannot be held accountable as an advlt and for the rest of his life for a choice that was made when he was a child and that was very likely made for him by those who actually had control over his upbringing. Even if it was what he thought he wanted at the time, a child is not in a position to be the agent of his own will because ultimately he is under the authority of the advlts around him.

In addition to that, there is the simple fact that the only people who can "enforce" an obligation to live by their philosophy are the Greybeards themselves, and they can do so only amongst themselves and with those who come to them for training and then only while those students are actually at High Hrothgar. Committing to the Way may be a prerequisite to becoming and remaining a Greybeard yourself, it may be required if you go there to train with them, but since Ulfric left of his own free will it is clear that going there or being sent there to train does not obligate anyone to remain there if they choose to leave. Again, unless the Greybeards are prepared to prevent students from ever leaving High Hrothgar, by force if necessary, then they must be prepared for the possibility that students (or even other members of their order) may leave and use what they were taught in ways they don't like. And yet they teach the Thu'um anyway, in the full knowledge that they cannot force anyone to follow the Way outside the walls of their enclave. They can only deny further training to and/or expel from their order anyone who doesn't follow it, which doesn't undo the results of the training that was already received.

That to me pretty much negates the idea and the very purpose of some supposed "lifetime obligation" that exists anywhere other than within HH, because it would be an obligation that could only be enforced among the Greybeards themselves and obviously being chosen to join them doesn't obligate someone to stay there forever if they choose to do otherwise. And again, I don't remember seeing any proof that there even IS some kind of offical oath, or that if there is, Ulfric ever took it. (If such evidence exists, someone please point me to it.) And if he did, and took it as a prerequisite to being trained at all, then he took it as a child or his family made the commitment for him and therefore it's null and void anyway IMO.

Anyway... I compare it to my relationship with my sensei. He has taught me how to hurt people, how to maim and even kill them. He has taught me that what I've learned should only be used in "True Need" - in this case, defense of myself or others. But he freely admits that once I walk out the door of his dojo, the only person who can decide what constitutes "True Need" is me. He doesn't require me to take some kind of oath saying I will not do this here and not do that there and only do some other thing in circumstances that meet with his approval, because what would be the point? It's not like he can enforce it. If I leave his dojo and go do something that violates *his* philosophy of how my training should be used, he can refuse to keep training me, but I already know that and if I choose to violate it anyway then that's my choice and I knew what the consequences would be and obviously I was willing to live with that. I'm not obligated to abide by his philosophy unless I want to be in his dojo and remain his student. I think the same kind of thing applies with regard to Ulfric and the Greybeards.

[Beth Belcher]

However, my problem is Ulfric's racism. High Elf racism? Fine. It's the Thalmor, I understand. It still might not be right but the wounds the Thalmor inflicted are deep. But racism towards Dark Elves, the one type of elves that aren't subjugated under the Aldmeri Dominion, is unfounded and pointless. Same with Argonians.

What racism towards Dunmer? They are living apart from Nords because of the Decree of Monument, which gave them the right to settle in Skyrim without swearing fealty or giving compensation. Ulfric literally has no obligation to them and they none to him, hence why he's not pressing them into service in the guard. They're supposed to be policing themselves. You can criticize it as bad social policy, that living in separate enclaves was a bad idea, but not as racist. Dollars to sweetrolls the Dunmer themselves insisted on living in their own quarter without Nord interference, and it's just the agitators now (really just Ambarys) who try to make it seem like they're poor persecuted little lambs.

Not to mention that Ulfric's stance on, "Victory or Sovnegarde" somehow didn't apply when he was ambushed and about to die, most likely outnumbered.

And if he had allowed his men to be slaughtered, people would say how dumb it was. Really, I can't believe people are using this against him. I figure he hoped that the imperials might kill him and spare his men. It often happens that way in medieval type warfare. He just didn't know the imperials were in a mood to lop off everyone's head, including innocent passers by and thieves who would normally just pay a bounty.

[Tanika O'Connell]

What racism towards Dunmer? They are living apart from Nords because of the Decree of Monument, which gave them the right to settle in Skyrim without swearing fealty or giving compensation. Ulfric literally has no obligation to them and they none to him, hence why he's not pressing them into service in the guard. They're supposed to be policing themselves. You can criticize it as bad social policy, that living in separate enclaves was a bad idea, but not as racist. Dollars to sweetrolls the Dunmer themselves insisted on living in their own quarter without Nord interference, and it's just the agitators now (really just Ambarys) who try to make it seem like they're poor persecuted little lambs.

And if he had allowed his men to be slaughtered, people would say how dumb it was. Really, I can't believe people are using this against him. I figure he hoped that the imperials might kill him and spare his men. It often happens that way in medieval type warfare. He just didn't know the imperials were in a mood to lop off everyone's head, including innocent passers by and thieves who would normally just pay a bounty.

It's a valid point to raise that Ulfric was being hypocritical by not adhering to the same "victroy of death" stance that he rallies his followers to. He always tells his people to fight to the end and never accept defeat, yet when he was faced with hopeless odds he doesn't even put up a fight. To me it's just another example of his manipulative personality, but at the same time a seemingly break of character. Ulfric has proved that he is no coward and is more than willing to lead a charge, and while he abuses the voice he is still very skilled in combat. For Ulfric to simply give up without a fight seems pretty peculiar.

[gemma]

For Ulfric to simply give up without a fight seems pretty peculiar.

I don't think he gave up without a fight. Ralof says Ulfric ordered them stop fighting. They were ambushed, of course they fought at first, but they were badly outnumbered and at some point Ulfric ordered them to stand down.

Perhaps, as Ralof indicates, their leader didn't want them to die for nothing, having come to the conclusion that defeat and capture were inevitable under the circumstances. And perhaps he also realized that he had a choice between allowing himself and his men to be killed in a skirmish with no witnesses that could then be reported to the general public with whatever spin the Empire desired, or else staying alive for the time being and leaving open the options of rescue, escape, a trial at which to state his case and perhaps draw more followers to his banner... or at worst a very public execution in which he and his men could go to their deaths with the unflinching resolve of true Nord warriors who believed the cause they were dying for was just and honorable. In front of witnesses. Many of whom might already be disposed to support him and be suitably impressed. If I'm in his situation and expect to die anyway, that would certainly be my choice.

And as someone else already mentioned, maybe he thought or hoped that he would be the only one who was summarily executed if it came to that. Maybe he'd already managed to send a runner off from the scene to report his imminent capture, and hoped that larger forces would be sent to turn the tables on the Imperials. Who knows?

[Toby Green]

I don't think he gave up without a fight. Ralof says Ulfric ordered them stop fighting. They were ambushed, of course they fought at first, but they were badly outnumbered and at some point Ulfric ordered them to stand down.

Perhaps, as Ralof indicates, their leader didn't want them to die for nothing, having come to the conclusion that defeat and capture were inevitable under the circumstances. And perhaps he also realized that he had a choice between allowing himself and his men to be killed in a skirmish with no witnesses that could then be reported to the general public with whatever spin the Empire desired, or else staying alive for the time being and leaving open the options of rescue, escape, a trial at which to state his case and perhaps draw more followers to his banner... or at worst a very public execution in which he and his men could go to their deaths with the unflinching resolve of true Nord warriors who believed the cause they were dying for was just and honorable. In front of witnesses. Many of whom might already be disposed to support him and be suitably impressed. If I'm in his situation and expect to die anyway, that would certainly be my choice.

And as someone else already mentioned, maybe he thought or hoped that he would be the only one who was summarily executed if it came to that. Maybe he'd already managed to send a runner off from the scene to report his imminent capture, and hoped that larger forces would be sent to turn the tables on the Imperials. Who knows?

I believe it was Ulfric who says at one point that he ordered his men to surrender to save their lives. He did not know they were going to execute them all out of hand. He thought the Imperials were going to take them all to the Imperial City, and parade them before the Emperor. He expected to die himself. But he thought that at least Ralof and the others would live. So he surrendered.

If the tables were turned, I really cannot imagine Tullius doing the same. Rikke yes. But not Tullius.

[Nuno Castro]

It's a valid point to raise that Ulfric was being hypocritical by not adhering to the same "victroy of death" stance that he rallies his followers to.

It's not valid at all. He wasn't surrendering to try to save himself- it was to spare his troops a certain and senseless slaughter.

The problem is that people assume he is recklessly violent when he is not, that's the only way you can find his surrender to be out of character let alone "hypocritical." He's more passionate than Tullius, but still a careful general and not uncaring about his men.

[Austin England]

I believe it was Ulfric who says at one point that he ordered his men to surrender to save their lives. He did not know they were going to execute them all out of hand. He thought the Imperials were going to take them all to the Imperial City, and parade them before the Emperor. He expected to die himself. But he thought that at least Ralof and the others would live. So he surrendered.

I don't know about Ulfric, but I checked Ralof's dialogue in the CK and it's exactly what I remembered from the game. He does say that Ulfric ordered them to stop fighting because he "didn't want us to die for nothing." And also according to Ralof, the group he was with were Ulfric's personal guard. That being the case, it would've been their absolute duty to defend him at all costs so Ulfric telling them to stand down probably did save their lives at that moment.

The problem is that people assume he is recklessly violent when he is not, that's the only way you can find his surrender to be out of character let alone "hypocritical." He's more passionate than Tullius, but still a careful general and not uncaring about his men.

Agreed. For some reason a lot of stuff I read early on gave me the impression that he was supposed to be some kind of reckless, impetuous hothead who had no self-control and couldn't hold his temper. And I don't really see it in the dialogue and behavior that my character personally witnesses in the game, certainly not in comparison to many of the other main players in the CW quests. I think I've seen more hotheaded outbursts from Balgruuf in the course of playing both sides, than I have from Ulfric. Is he a complete nut in combat? Of course, but no more so than any other Nord alpha male I've come across.

[Johnny]

BTW the Bear of Markarth shouldn't be used to judge Ulfric since it is full of Imperial bias and after scouring Markarth you can find out what really happened.

The Forsworn took Markarth and killed the Jarl (Igmund's father) in doing so. Igmund cannot ask the Empire since they are still licking the wounds of the Great War. Igmund therefore hires Ulfric's militia to clear the city of Forsworn in return for money (probably) and free worship of Talos. Ulfric upholds his part of the bargain and defeats and captures the Forsworn and their leaders. Igmund then gets his revenge on the Forsworn by ordering mass executions of the Forsworn and their families.

The Empire then realise that Markarth is breaking the Talos law and sure enough they pressure Igmund into refuting it. The Thalmor then find out about this and send their justiciars out to curb Talos worship.

tl;dr Igmund is a despicable person, Ulfric was a mercenary who didn't get payed, Empire were a wreck after the Great War and in that period of time were Thalmor lapdogs, the whole incident brings the Justiciars into Skyrim.

[Sami Blackburn]

to me - it seems like Ulfric really is a Hero.

The self-serving, racist, [censored]-bag kind of hero.

I find the word "hero" is used without much consequence these days. He certainly would not live up to my standards ...