[Robert Bindley]

But some DO work/have jobs. Even shops/bar. Why do people only see the empty half of the cup? Have you ever considered that some might be, oh, I don't know....lazy? Yeah, big shock!

All of the Dunmer in Windhelm have jobs.

[RUby DIaz]

Eh, it IS hard to enforce that. Just because, like I said in my previous post, it's society.
Look, let me give you an example. Have you ever bullied/been bullied in school? Or have you witnessed bulling? Is it allowed? No. And it's punishable. Does it still happen? YES. Society.
In an Utopian world that law you mentioned would be easily enforced, heck it wouldn't even be needed in the first place.
But the world of Skyrim (and its society) tries to be realistic at least in regards to the inter-human relationships that develop within a community.
There will always be some Nord that will bully the Dunmer, despite all the laws.

That is quite true but don't forget that despite similarities, TES universe and it's society is a whole lot different from our own. Not just because of hum-animal species, sentinent trees, elven folk living for thousand of years (that's seriously a sh*tload of time) but because of social mechanics. True, not even Talos himself could eradicate racial bias and hate but that dosen't mean it's not worth fighting against. If we take your example then the good approach would be:

a, The aggressor needs to be reminded that such behaviour is unacceptable and won't really achieve anything. If the subject knows no other method to solve problems (inadequate social background), teach them. Speak. Negotiate. You can reason with an Altmer just as much as you can with a human. It's not the race that causes the problem but the individual's stubborness or lack of proper upbringing. I'm sure we all know reasonable humans and absolute douchebags as well, despite sharing (mostly) the same ancestry.

b, If the above mentioned dosen't work then comes punishment. Within our norms this could be all sorts of things depending on the severity and frequency of the crime, as well the age of the accused. In Tamriel it probably means a good, hard, old-fashioned beating. Nevertheless, if the aggressor can't be convinced to stop their behaviour then it's safe to say that society does not need them. IRL getting justice is becoming impossible to do with bureocracy infesting everything. In Tamriel -even if there IS a corruption among the high ranking nobles- justice can be achieved one way or another.

It's certainly a cause worthy of pursuing. Maybe I could make a Dragonborn and RP just that. Captain Vigilante to the rescue!

[lucile davignon]

Give them work as I would to any Nord. That goes for the Argonians, Khajits and actually everyone. Any racial discrimination would be punished in public, to set an example. I would want to achieve a restored, strong Skyrim for the people (be it Nords or non-Nords) not a bickering, warring Skyrim which collapses on itself due to men, mer and beast folk can't set aside age old conflicts and differences. Look at where the Dunmers ended up after centuries of interior conflicts, xenophobia and oppression and/or persecution of the "lesser" races. That's exactly where the Nords are heading if Ulfric wins and keeps his current attitude and views.

If it were a simple matter, THEY WOULDN'T BE AGE OLD CONFLICTS AND DIFFERENCES. You toss that phrase around like Ulfric is a god who can eliminate interracial conflict with the wave of a hand. He's a man. He's a man with a hell of a lot on his plate. Good grief.

[Roisan Sweeney]

All of the Dunmer in Windhelm have jobs.

Well, even better!
Also, I forgot about Belyn who owns a house and a farm AND has a Nord woman working for him.

[Emma-Jane Merrin]

If it were a simple matter, THEY WOULDN'T BE AGE OLD CONFLICTS AND DIFFERENCES. You toss that phrase around like Ulfric is a god who can eliminate interracial conflict with the wave of a hand. He's a man. He's a man with a hell of a lot on his plate. Good grief.

Tiber Septim was a man and he did a pretty awesome job of pulling together the regions. It was nowhere near perfect of course (a lot of Black Marsh remained independent, slavery couldn't be completely outlawed in Vvardenfell, etc.) but certainly better than what's going on right now.

[..xX Vin Xx..]

Tiber Septim was a man and he did a pretty awesome job of pulling together the regions. It was nowhere near perfect of course (a lot of Black Marsh remained independent, slavery couldn't be completely outlawed in Vvardenfell, etc.) but certainly better than what's going on right now.

And now he's a God, with a capital G. Again, Ulfric ain't the second coming of Talos. You're setting the bar pretty high here.

[Vera Maslar]

And now he's a God, with a capital G. Again, Ulfric ain't the second coming of Talos. You're setting the bar pretty high here.

Well, I do. But hey, if I have to pick someone as the future leader for Skyrim (maybe even a once-again-united Tamriel?) then might as well aim for the best. And by that, I don't mean that General Tullius on the Imperial side is a better candidate but that the whole Ulfric/Tullius - Skyrim/Empire - Skyrim/Thalmor - Empire/Thalmor rubbish needs to be handled by someone competent enough. That's the point of the whole civil war questline. To make your Dovahkiin choose.

[Robert Jr]

Well, even better!
Also, I forgot about Belyn who owns a house and a farm AND has a Nord woman working for him.

He still has to live in the Grey Quarter though. His employee gets a nicer living space than he does, on the property he owns.

[Katie Samuel]

He still has to live in the Grey Quarter though. His employee gets a nicer living space than he does, on the property he owns.

Oh, by Shor!
Of course he's living in the Grey Quarter because that was the place available! Should Ulfric kick the other residents of Windhelm out of their houses so that the Dunmer can live in there?
Should Ulfric start building new homes because the refugees that were in desperate need of a roof over their heads don't like the look of the Grey Quarter?
Come on...

Or maybe Ulfric should move out of the Palace of the Kings into the Grey Quarter, and let the Dunmer live there. Yeah, I bet that would make them happy. Wait, no, I'm sure they will still complain about how the palace is not properly lit.

[Emmanuel Morales]

Well, I do. But hey, if I have to pick someone as the future leader for Skyrim (maybe even a once-again-united Tamriel?) then might as well aim for the best. And by that, I don't mean that General Tullius on the Imperial side is a better candidate but that the whole Ulfric/Tullius - Skyrim/Empire - Skyrim/Thalmor - Empire/Thalmor rubbish needs to be handled by someone competent enough. That's the point of the whole civil war questline. To make your Dovahkiin choose.

If you have to "pick someone as the future leader of Skyrim" you'd prefer someone who is OK with appeasemant and collusion with the most (ahem...I hate to use an inappropriate word) genocidally "racist" faction on Skyrim--one implacably dedicated to wiping out all humans on Tamriel?!

That's who you'd pick?! Any member of the Empire as opposed to a leader that gave the Dunmer shelter and a place to live (was the Decree of Monument forced upon Ulfric?), doesn't actively persecute them, allows them to rise to whatever level they can, doesn't tax them, doesn't conscript them, allow rthem to farm and have Nord employees...simply because he is so focused on organizing and funding, inspiring and leading, a revolution to kick the British...excuse me, the Thalmor...out of Skyrim, that he can't do missionary work among the Irish?

[Emily abigail Villarreal]

If you have to "pick someone as the future leader of Skyrim" you'd prefer someone who is OK with appeasemant and collusion with the most (ahem...I hate to use an inappropriate word) genocidally "racist" faction on Skyrim--one implacably dedicated to wiping out all humans on Tamriel?!

That's who you'd pick?! Any member of the Empire as opposed to a leader that gave the Dunmer shelter and a place to live (was the Decree of Monument forced upon Ulfric?), doesn't actively persecute them, allows them to rise to whatever level they can, doesn't tax them, doesn't conscript them, allow rthem to farm and have Nord employees...simply because he is so focused on organizing and funding, inspiring and leading, a revolution to kick the British...excuse me, the Thalmor...out of Skyrim, that he can't do missionary work among the Irish?

The Decree of Monument was before Ulfrics time. He had nothing to do with it. It is almost 200 years old by now, as it was, according to the Decree itself, written in 4E20. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument

[~Amy~]

If you have to "pick someone as the future leader of Skyrim" you'd prefer someone who is OK with appeasemant and collusion with the most (ahem...I hate to use an inappropriate word) genocidally "racist" faction on Skyrim--one implacably dedicated to wiping out all humans on Tamriel?!

That's who you'd pick?! Any member of the Empire as opposed to a leader that gave the Dunmer shelter and a place to live (was the Decree of Monument forced upon Ulfric?), doesn't actively persecute them, allows them to rise to whatever level they can, doesn't tax them, doesn't conscript them, allow rthem to farm and have Nord employees...simply because he is so focused on organizing and funding, inspiring and leading, a revolution to kick the British...excuse me, the Thalmor...out of Skyrim, that he can't do missionary work among the Irish?

Woah, woah. I said that I don't think either one of them is up for the job. Both Ulfric and Tullius has faults which makes it easy for me to disqualify them from the would-be-ruler-of-Skyrim position. Then again, I'm extremely picky. Problem is, who remains if no imperial, stormcloak and certainly no thalmor can be appointed? The forsworn? The falmer? The orcs?

[Pete Schmitzer]

The Decree of Monument was before Ulfrics time. He had nothing to do with it. It is almost 200 years old by now, as it was, according to the Decree itself, written in 4E20. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Decree_of_Monument

Does that mean that he's obliged to ignore it...like some have suggested he was obliged to eschew Nord Traditions when challenging Torygg? Simply because they were "old" and "out of date"?

The fact that he doesn't ignore the Decree of Monument, doesn't kick out or persecute the Dunmer, gives the lie to the charges of "racism."

Much more so than the speculation that the Empire's motive for its ignoble and unholy alliance with the Thalmor is just buying time

[Tasha Clifford]

Does that mean that he's obliged to ignore it...like some have suggested he was obliged to eschew Nord Traditions when challenging Torygg? Simply because they were "old" and "out of date"?

The fact that he doesn't ignore the Decree of Monument, doesn't kick out or persecute the Dunmer, gives the lie to the charges of "racism."

Much more so than the speculation that the Empire's motive for its ignoble and unholy alliance with the Thalmor is just buying time

The Decree of Monument says the Dunmer are their own people living in Skyrim so they are technically not citizen of Eastmarch in the same way the Altmer or Nords living in Windhelm is. The Dunmer doesn't owe Ulfric anyhting and Ulfric doesn't owe the Dunmer anything, they themselves are responsible for keeping the 'Grey Quarter' orderly, though I would assume the city guards would patrol there from time to time anyway.

It does indeed put some doubt into the charges of racism, though there is still the Argonian that claims it was Ulfric that forced his people to live on the docks. Whether or not that is true have yet to be proven as he is the only source on it, unless I have missed something.

[trisha punch]

Woah, woah. I said that I don't think either one of them is up for the job. Both Ulfric and Tullius has faults which makes it easy for me to disqualify them from the would-be-ruler-of-Skyrim position. Then again, I'm extremely picky. Problem is, who remains if no imperial, stormcloak and certainly no thalmor can be appointed? The forsworn? The falmer? The orcs?

Now there's one of the more sensible and rational post made in any of these threads. It speaks to the reasons I haven't chosen a side.

I suspect Bethesda meant for us to be caught between an ethical choice and an emotional choice. Some people dislike Ulfric and call him "scumbag" and "racist"...without, as far as I can see, any real factual foundation...and choose to support collusion and appeasemant, simply because they don't like him--something about the fact that he is a warrior, confidant, and an authority figure, turns them off.

That's fine but it's not rational...emotional choices never are.

[Emzy Baby!]

I believe certain people here would like to see "Unite Against Racism" banners draqed all around Windhelm and prison sentences for racial abuse to prove that Ulfric is actually a racist (which would be infringing on free speech). For proof that Ulfric is not racist play the Stormcloak questline as A DUNMER..


They'd also like to see the Nords of Windhelm give the refugee Dunmer their own manors that their families built and go an live in the Grey Quarter instead. Perhaps make a Dunmer jarl as well eh ? The Nords have provided pretty well for the Dunmer given the situation, remember they're also settling in Solstheim in large numbers as well. The Dunmer are just ungrateful bas,tards.. Can you imagine them doing this for Argonians if Black Marsh had been hit by disaster ? "Sure come on in Argonians, let me just fit this chain round your neck"....

[Amysaurusrex]

I believe certain people here would like to see "Unite Against Racism" banners draqed all around Windhelm and prison sentences for racial abuse to prove that Ulfric is actually a racist (which would be infringing on free speech). For proof that Ulfric is not racist play the Stormcloak questline as A DUNMER..

The more I read these various threads, the more convinced I am that they are actually "proxy dialogues."

I suspect that most of the people who vilify Ulfric would rather be speaking to someone else...in the real world. Out on the street chanting "scumbag" or "racism."

For any and every imagined slight.

[lucy chadwick]

Oh, by Shor!
Of course he's living in the Grey Quarter because that was the place available! Should Ulfric kick the other residents of Windhelm out of their houses so that the Dunmer can live in there?
Should Ulfric start building new homes because the refugees that were in desperate need of a roof over their heads don't like the look of the Grey Quarter?
Come on...

Or maybe Ulfric should move out of the Palace of the Kings into the Grey Quarter, and let the Dunmer live there. Yeah, I bet that would make them happy. Wait, no, I'm sure they will still complain about how the palace is not properly lit.

Windhelm's small size and limited housing is a game mechanic (because Beth couldn't put more in). Likely, there IS available housing. If that's what Windhelm would actually look like, it probably wouldn't even stand an arrow to the knee.

The more I read these various threads, the more convinced I am that they are actually "proxy dialogues."

I suspect that most of the people who vilify Ulfric would rather be speaking to someone else...in the real world. Out on the street chanting "scumbag" or "racism."

For any and every imagined slight.

I would also imagine that a lot of Stormcloak supporters on this thread would be racists. All the common-and-not-very-good excuses for racism are there in Ulfric's defense. Kind of hits a nerve, really.

Imperials are [censored]s. Stormcloaks are [censored]s. I'll just start a new governmental body of my own and called it Dragonborn Utopia Land.

[tegan fiamengo]

I would prefer Brunwulf Free-Winter to be Jarl of Windhelm myself, he is a fair man.

[glot]

I'll just start a new governmental body of my own and called it Dragonborn Utopia Land.

I may or may not live in that land of yours. It depends. Do citizens get free ponies? Also, will you turn Ulfric and Tullius gay, on the demand of Akatosh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whFBCIzwxp8

[Kirsty Collins]

Windhelm's small size and limited housing is a game mechanic (because Beth couldn't put more in). Likely, there IS available housing. If that's what Windhelm would actually look like, it probably wouldn't even stand an arrow to the knee.

But we can't really discuss about that, neither can you bring it as an argument (well, you can, but in my view it holds no ground) since you will never find solid proof that there IS more space, as opposed to the actual proof in-game that the city is full.
Bringing such an argument into the discussion is like saying "Oh, I think it's likely that Ulfric has a dozen Dunmer trapped in his basemant and he's torturing them right before he goes to bed, but after he drinks his milk, because it's likely that Ulfric drinks milk"
This kind of discussion would only be limited by the participants' imagination...

I would also imagine that a lot of Stormcloak supporters on this thread would be racists. All the common-and-not-very-good excuses for racism are there in Ulfric's defense. Kind of hits a nerve, really.

What are those common-and-not-very-good excuses?

[Eddie Howe]

I would prefer Brunwulf Free-Winter to be Jarl of Windhelm myself, he is a fair man.

If he is fair then he is also racist like some of people claim Ulfric is as he doesn't let the Argonians into the city.

[Russell Davies]

If he is fair then he is also racist like some of people claim Ulfric is as he doesn't let the Argonians into the city.

In all honesty, no one really like us, lizards. It's the sad, sad reality of TES. :'<

[Cat]

If he is fair then he is also racist like some of people claim Ulfric is as he doesn't let the Argonians into the city.

He's looking for away to let them in without pissing off the nords, but he has promised to help them if they need anything till then,

[Alex Blacke]

He's looking for away to let them in without pissing off the nords, but he has promised to help them if they need anything till then,

It isn't the Nords he's trying to not anger, it's the Dunmer as the Dunmer and Argonians hate each other for many reasons. If it weren't for the Dunmer, the Argonians could be let into the city.