[Janette Segura]

It's not valid at all. He wasn't surrendering to try to save himself- it was to spare his troops a certain and senseless slaughter.

The problem is that people assume he is recklessly violent when he is not, that's the only way you can find his surrender to be out of character let alone "hypocritical." He's more passionate than Tullius, but still a careful general and not uncaring about his men.

Then he is "Emotional attached" that is VERY bad if your leading soldiers, Tullius, while caring for his men, Usual appears emotionless, And he fights not for some "Dream", he fights because its his job.

[Lyd]

This is what I did to Ulfric Stormcloak:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594714782040428860/C4EFDF482574CA1B951E24AD210FD46D776EC651/

[Jessie]

Then he is "Emotional attached" that is VERY bad if your leading soldiers, Tullius, while caring for his men, Usual appears emotionless, And he fights not for some "Dream", he fights because its his job.

What she said was that Ulfric was "not uncaring" about his men.

Please explain how being "not uncaring" about your men (Ulfric) and "caring for" your men (Tullius) differ so greatly in degree that the former implies some kind of dangerously depraved emotional attachment, while the latter indicates a healthy and emotionless ability to lead them in a detached and professional manner.

Actually, saying that Ulfric is "not uncaring" while Tullius is "caring" by comparison indicates that Tullius cares more given the way those phrases are understood in common English usage. So if anyone is closer to being overly emotionally attached to them and their cause, you're saying it's Tullius. Whole argument kinda falls apart right there.



Also, I'm gonna have to remember the "too emotionally attached to his men" angle to the "Ulfric is bad" argument the next time somebody points out the fact that he's not hovering over his wounded men like a mother hen after the dragon attack in Helgen as a reason to find fault with him. I'm not saying you have done that, necessarily, I just find it amusing that him supposedly being/doing one thing is proof of his inherent evilosity, while him being/doing the exact opposite of that thing is... also proof of his inherent evilosity.

[Killer McCracken]

This is what I did to Ulfric Stormcloak:

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/594714782040428860/C4EFDF482574CA1B951E24AD210FD46D776EC651/

I married him so, you know... kinda the same thing really.

[abi]

That sixy voice.

I really do believe he is fighting for what he believes is right, in the same way Hitler was. Both were/are trying to unite a country under any means necessary.
He only seemed evil because we were on the opposing side, which is is how it ALWAYS is.

Your the first person I've heard stick up for Hitler... Bravo.. Do some history, there's nothing in common. lol

[X(S.a.R.a.H)X]

Logical conclusion, IMO.

Fancy words for speculation ...

[Aman Bhattal]

It's not valid at all. He wasn't surrendering to try to save himself- it was to spare his troops a certain and senseless slaughter.

The problem is that people assume he is recklessly violent when he is not, that's the only way you can find his surrender to be out of character let alone "hypocritical." He's more passionate than Tullius, but still a careful general and not uncaring about his men.

You're completely missing the point, it has nothing to do with the tactical soundness of the decision, but the hypocrisy that he commits in doing it. He constantly tells his people to fight to the death, yet he himself does not when the time comes.

[~Amy~]

You're completely missing the point, it has nothing to do with the tactical soundness of the decision, but the hypocrisy that he commits in doing it. He constantly tells his people to fight to the death, yet he himself does not when the time comes.

Yep, you're right. I don't see the point at all.

I'm not saying you have done that, necessarily, I just find it amusing that him supposedly being/doing one thing is proof of his inherent evilosity, while him being/doing the exact opposite of that thing is... also proof of his inherent evilosity.

Welcome to teh forum.

[Eilidh Brian]

Fancy words for speculation ...

And I would answer that I have so far seen no evidence of the following:

1. that an official "oath of induction" actually exists as a prerequisite to becoming a student of the Greybeards
2. that said oath requires all current and former students to abide by a strict observance of the Way of the Voice for ever and ever amen even if said students are no longer students of the Greybeards or Greybeards themselves
3. that Ulfric actually took said oath

Until I see proof of the above, then I will still consider all talk of Ulfric "breaking his oath" and "violating his vows" to be baseless nonsense, and not worth considering when it comes to any assessment of his flaws as a person.

And I'll say it again: if such an oath indeed exists, and Ulfric took it as a prerequisite to beginning his training with the Greybeards, then he was a child when it happened and therefore not able to act freely as an agent of his own will and the oath is null and void anyway. You don't make binding contracts with children. Whether he would've wanted to make such a "contract" as a child is irrelevant. If he was chosen to go to HH and his family sent him there and he had to take some oath or make some vow to make it happen, even if he wanted to do it at the time, ten years later he still has every right to renounce that oath and choose his own path as an advlt. Unless you want to see the Greybeards as the kind of people who choose a child as a student but only on the condition that his entire life will be signed away to them, without the child having the freedom even as an advlt to choose a different life for himself.

[Mizz.Jayy]

What she said was that Ulfric was "not uncaring" about his men.

Please explain how being "not uncaring" about your men (Ulfric) and "caring for" your men (Tullius) differ so greatly in degree that the former implies some kind of dangerously depraved emotional attachment, while the latter indicates a healthy and emotionless ability to lead them in a detached and professional manner.

Actually, saying that Ulfric is "not uncaring" while Tullius is "caring" by comparison indicates that Tullius cares more given the way those phrases are understood in common English usage. So if anyone is closer to being overly emotionally attached to them and their cause, you're saying it's Tullius. Whole argument kinda falls apart right there.



Also, I'm gonna have to remember the "too emotionally attached to his men" angle to the "Ulfric is bad" argument the next time somebody points out the fact that he's not hovering over his wounded men like a mother hen after the dragon attack in Helgen as a reason to find fault with him. I'm not saying you have done that, necessarily, I just find it amusing that him supposedly being/doing one thing is proof of his inherent evilosity, while him being/doing the exact opposite of that thing is... also proof of his inherent evilosity.

I am saying he is "Emotional attached" to his men, meaning he cares about his soldiers, but being "Emotional attached" to them could lead to some major problems, for example if a large force of Thalmor soldiers was about to ambush a large group of his men, and he knew about it, but at the same time what if there's another group of stormcloak soldiers about to get ambushed? However the later has a powerful mage with them, which one does he choose? Tullius while regrettable...Would most likely choose the group with the mage, since he is not emotionally attached to them, Here is a good quote from Warhammer 40k, "A guardsmen life is to die", while Ulfric see's his men as "MEN" tullius views his Men as SOLDIERS, "A soldiers life is to die..."

[Hannah Barnard]

Theoretically speaking, Ulfric has seen the war from the eyes of both sides. How many Imperials can say that? Everyone is on the side of their own, until they see the light from the other side. Only ppl that have truly considered the arguments of both sides can truly say they know who is righteous. But is anybody truly righteous? It's all just shades of grey anyway. Only peace is the righteous thing. So whosoever is a warmonger is not righteous. But there is no fun, no game, in that (unless you like the Sims). So what really matters?

[Caroline flitcroft]

To me, he is an idiot that doesn't realise he is doing exactly what the Thalmor want him to. By starting a civil war, there is a convinient excuse for hundreds of Thalmor troops to pour into Skyrim, where they can search for the stone of Snow-Throat. Wether they do find out, or if Snow-Tower is left deactivated, is ambiguous, but anyone who knows anything about divine metaphisics can see that it is a terrible idea to let the Aldmeri Dominion near one of the last remaining towers. Ulfric,being naught but an ignorant soldier, cannot see the bigger picture, and in his ignorance may have doomed the whole of the Mundus (though, of course, that hardly matters, as a nameless prisoner will no doubt rise up to save the day once more.)

[Channing]

He seemed to have noble intentions at first and I wanted to help the Stormcloaks free themselves from the Empire, but in the end...

Spoiler

I couldn't hand over the Jagged Crown nor could I stand by while his troops burned Whiterun.

I felt the civil war only served to weaken Skyrim and leave it ripe for the picking for the Thalmor. So instead, I chose to stay neutral on the Imperial vs. Stormcloak issue and instead slaughter the Thalmor any and every time I encounter them. My character has done more to serve the interests of Skyrim by slaughtering untold scores of Thalmor than Ulfric ever will.

Plus I make some extra spending cash selling their cruddy equipment for profit. I suppose I do help the Stormcloaks once in a while by freeing the Thalmor prisoners (not sure if they are Stormcloaks, though, or just Talos worshippers).

I never noticed him being racist toward the Dunmer or the Argonians, though. If people think that just because of a random comment about Skyrim being "for the Nords" or some such then that's reading alot into that statement. Also, if it's because of "the Grey Quarter", then really, meh. The Nords settled Skyrim and if they want to keep it relatively "outsider-free" then that makes them no worse than the denizens of Vvardenfell, everyone's favorite volcanic island. "Speak quickly outlander, or go away!" Really, I don't think the Dark Elves are treated any worse in Skyrim than "outlanders" were treated in Morrowind.

[Emmanuel Morales]

while Ulfric see's his men as "MEN" tullius views his Men as SOLDIERS, "A soldiers life is to die..."

You're just making this stuff up.

[Ells]

"I don't want you to die for your country. I want you to make the other poor son of a b!tch die for his country."
--- George S. Patton

[JR Cash]

So am I right that Ulfric, the supposedly self-serving powermonger, is now being criticized for being so attached to his men so that he won't risk their lives? *facepalm*

[Crystal Clarke]

So am I right that Ulfric, the supposedly self-serving powermonger, is now being criticized for being so attached to his men so that he won't risk their lives? *facepalm*

That would be the case, yes.

[Nicole Elocin]

What racism towards Dunmer? They are living apart from Nords because of the Decree of Monument, which gave them the right to settle in Skyrim without swearing fealty or giving compensation. Ulfric literally has no obligation to them and they none to him, hence why he's not pressing them into service in the guard. They're supposed to be policing themselves. You can criticize it as bad social policy, that living in separate enclaves was a bad idea, but not as racist. Dollars to sweetrolls the Dunmer themselves insisted on living in their own quarter without Nord interference, and it's just the agitators now (really just Ambarys) who try to make it seem like they're poor persecuted little lambs.

This! Quoting because it's so true! And because I see people throwing around "ooo Ulfric is soooo racist!" "ooo Ulfric is soooo evil for doing that to the Dunmer"
You know what I like even more? That none of the people that accuse Ulfric of doing "bad" things to the Dunmer say what THEY would do in his place?
Hmm? What would you do if you were Jarl of Windhelm and had a pretty big bunch of refugees on your hands?

So am I right that Ulfric, the supposedly self-serving powermonger, is now being criticized for being so attached to his men so that he won't risk their lives? *facepalm*

Also this...

[Danger Mouse]

This! Quoting because it's so true! And because I see people throwing around "ooo Ulfric is soooo racist!" "ooo Ulfric is soooo evil for doing that to the Dunmer"
You know what I like even more? That none of the people that accuse Ulfric of doing "bad" things to the Dunmer say what THEY would do in his place?
Hmm? What would you do if you were Jarl of Windhelm and had a pretty big bunch of refugees on your hands?

Give them work as I would to any Nord. That goes for the Argonians, Khajits and actually everyone. Any racial discrimination would be punished in public, to set an example. I would want to achieve a restored, strong Skyrim for the people (be it Nords or non-Nords) not a bickering, warring Skyrim which collapses on itself due to men, mer and beast folk can't set aside age old conflicts and differences. Look at where the Dunmers ended up after centuries of interior conflicts, xenophobia and oppression and/or persecution of the "lesser" races. That's exactly where the Nords are heading if Ulfric wins and keeps his current attitude and views.

[Lil Miss]

It's not exactly like Ulfric does anything about the racism and even violence against the Dunmer population of Windhelm, either. Maybe he has a good reason (like other concerns, or ignorance of how bad the situation is - on the other hand, the proprietor of the New Gnisis Cornerclub claims to have tried to talk to him several times, being ignored), maybe he just doesn't care. Maybe something changes I haven't found out about yet.

[josh evans]

It's not exactly like Ulfric does anything about the racism and even violence against the Dunmer population of Windhelm, either. Maybe he has a good reason (like other concerns, or ignorance of how bad the situation is - on the other hand, the proprietor of the New Gnisis Cornerclub claims to have tried to talk to him several times, being ignored), maybe he just doesn't care. Maybe something changes I haven't found out about yet.

Is ignorance really a good reason?

[Alex [AK]]

Give them work as I would to any Nord. That goes for the Argonians, Khajits and actually everyone. Any racial discrimination would be punished in public, to set an example. I would want to achieve a restored, strong Skyrim for the people (be it Nords or non-Nords) not a bickering, warring Skyrim which collapses on itself due to men, mer and beast folk can't set aside age old conflicts and differences. Look at where the Dunmers ended up after centuries of interior conflicts, xenophobia and oppression and/or persecution of the "lesser" races. That's exactly where the Nords are heading if Ulfric wins and keeps his current attitude and views.

But some DO work/have jobs. Even shops/bar. Why do people only see the empty half of the cup? Have you ever considered that some might be, oh, I don't know....lazy? Yeah, big shock!

Also, we don't know for sure that discrimination from the citizens of Windhelm against the Dunmer is not punished. Maybe it's just not presented in-game. I personally take what the NPC's tell me with a grain of salt, people are biased and tend to present only their
side of the story.
And Ulfric should definitely start acting baby-sitter and go around town chastising the naughty citizens, I really see him doing that...
In our world, in real life, how many acts of injustice happen, some even go unpunished. Have you never been insulted or taunted or even threatened? Can you tell me that IRL every single one of these get punished?
It's society...these things happen. The leaders cannot be held responsible for every insult another citizen throws around.

But I do agree on what you said about the bickering and setting aside old conflicts, especially in these troubled times.

Also, on the "punish in public". Being a leader is a sensitive matter. Sure I would love (if I were a leader, let's say) to go around and smite injustice. But you have to be careful about these things. Going all mighty and smity(not a word, haha) against some to appease others might not turn out so nice in the long run. You have to find a balance, being a leader and keeping the respect of all your people is not such an easy job.

It's not exactly like Ulfric does anything about the racism and even violence against the Dunmer population of Windhelm, either. Maybe he has a good reason (like other concerns, or ignorance of how bad the situation is - on the other hand, the proprietor of the New Gnisis Cornerclub claims to have tried to talk to him several times, being ignored), maybe he just doesn't care. Maybe something changes I haven't found out about yet.

Do we have clear proof that he does nothing about racism? From where/who? I'm asking because maybe I missed something...But I wouldn't base that accusation solely on what the Dunmer of Windhelm say.

[Tamara Primo]

Is ignorance really a good reason?

Not for a jarl, no. He should know what's going on in his city, and I have the impression that he doesn't. He focus on the war, period, it seems.

[Monique Cameron]

But some DO work/have jobs. Even shops/bar. Why do people only see the empty half of the cup? Have you ever considered that some might be, oh, I don't know....lazy? Yeah, big shock!

Also, we don't know for sure that discrimination from the citizens of Windhelm against the Dunmer is not punished. Maybe it's just not presented in-game. I personally take what the NPC's tell me with a grain of salt, people are biased and tend to present only their
side of the story.
And Ulfric should definitely start acting baby-sitter and go around town chastising the naughty citizens, I really see him doing that...
In our world, in real life, how many acts of injustice happen, some even go unpunished. Have you never been insulted or taunted or even threatened? Can you tell me that IRL every single one of these get punished?
It's society...these things happen. The leaders cannot be held responsible for every insult another citizen throws around.

But I do agree on what you said about the bickering and setting aside old conflicts, especially in these troubled times.

Also, on the "punish in public". Being a leader is a sensitive matter. Sure I would love (if I were a leader, let's say) to go around and smite injustice. But you have to be careful about these things. Going all mighty and smity(not a word, haha) against some to appease others might not turn out so nice in the long run. You have to find a balance, being a leader and keeping the respect of all your people is not such an easy job.



Do we have clear proof that he does nothing about racism? From where/who? I'm asking because maybe I missed something...But I wouldn't base that accusation solely on what the Dunmer of Windhelm say.

Those who DO have work are doing the right thing and should be treated equal. Those who really don't want to work? Yep, send them right back to their precious Morrowind. Anyone else who dosen't want to work and is not a refugee? Throw 'em out of town. They'll be let back in when they decide to do their fair share. If we're on the subject... offer any out-law a chance at redemption to become part of the society and if they turn it down then too bad. Forever jail time. And not a hastily built, nilly-willy one like in Markrath. No, Imperial style jail from which no one escapes.

And it's not like Ulfric would have to do that much smiting. I mean, aside from don't kill and don't steal, the only law would be to don't discriminate against other races. How hard is that? Basically, as long as you earn your living and don't bicker with others you can worship whoever you want and do whatever you want. Not too much to ask, I think. I believe that with the exception of the most hardcoe stormcloak or imperial supporters, most people would happily agree with such rules if it meant that Skyrim becomes a united and strong region again.

Funny thing is, everyone wants a strong Skyrim which can stand up to the Thalmor or whatever threat it faces. Yet, they're at each other's throat the minute an opportunity arises to do so and with that, sabotage the whole thing. Vvardenfell could be restored (or could have been even saved from the catastrophe) if Dunmers wouldn't be so hell-bent on hating other and others be so hell-bent on hating the Dunmers. Same with every region.

The many problems of Tamriel all boil down to the races not being able to exist in relative peace. It's probably the Bosmers and Argonians that initated the least wars as both of them are living a somewhat dormant, reclusive, tribal lifestyle, content to keep to themselves. As other races can't (Orsimer have no land of their own, Imperials are basically too widespread by now) or won't (even non-Thalmor Altmer wan't some sort of dominion, Dunmer "need" slaves to keep the plantations and mining profitable) do that, everyone has to agree on a common ground and ally. There won't be a Dragonborn, Hero of Kvatch or Nerevar reborn to save their behind every time.

[Tyrel]

I mean, aside from don't kill and don't steal, the only law would be to don't discriminate against other races. How hard is that? Basically, as long as you earn your living and don't bicker with others you can worship whoever you want and do whatever you want. Not too much to ask, I think. I believe that with the exception of the most hardcoe stormcloak or imperial supporters, most people would happily agree with such rules if it meant that Skyrim becomes a united and strong region again.

Eh, it IS hard to enforce that. Just because, like I said in my previous post, it's society.
Look, let me give you an example. Have you ever bullied/been bullied in school? Or have you witnessed bulling? Is it allowed? No. And it's punishable. Does it still happen? YES. Society.
In an Utopian world that law you mentioned would be easily enforced, heck it wouldn't even be needed in the first place.
But the world of Skyrim (and its society) tries to be realistic at least in regards to the inter-human relationships that develop within a community.
There will always be some Nord that will bully the Dunmer, despite all the laws.