I agree, I really enjoyed Oblivion and still play it today more than Skyrim, considering I don't even play Skyrim anymore. I bought Skyrim thinking it would atleast keep the basis of what Oblivion had. But instead they decided to do exactly what you said about DA: Origins to DA:2, and just crush the core of the past games in the series and replace with gimmick-y crap.

What i'm getting at here is that it's not nostalgia, Skyrim is just a terrible RPG.

There isn't any one reason, i believe its for all the reasons i described in combination with each other.

Personally, I found ME2's "rpg elements" to be stronger in some ways than ME1's. But that's because I consider character conversations & decision making to be RPG elements, not a needlessly tedious and cluttered inventory system. So, yeah - I rolled my eyes whenever people [censored]ed that ME2 "wasn't an RPG anymore" just because they didn't have to wade through five dozen trash weapon drops. (Now story-wise, yeah... ME1's is better than ME2's. Doesn't make ME2's bad, just not as good.)

Yes, ME2 perhaps oversimplified the skill trees, and could have used some more equipment. Which ME3 fixed, so..... yeah, except for the ending 5 minutes being disappointing, ME3 was excellent. And improved over the things people complained about in ME2 - more loot, more character customization. I find it kind of funny how the ending makes people suddenly write off everything else that was there as trash.

(DA2.... never played it. Can't comment.)

I must say, i agree with you on parts. Skyrim is deep, there are things that are hidden and what not, but there is a lack of a morality system which should really be there. There is a rich history to Skyrim. but then again, the attention span of the players these days can not contain the amount of deepness of other games...

and Morrowind is not the best game ever... it's good yes, but it's not the best.

Generally speaking, choices and consequences have been greatly diminished or are nearly non existent in many games these days. It used to be there was no such thing as a "respec", and the choices you made had DRASTIC effects on the outcome of your game. Not so much anymore, in many games just about anything you do either has little to no consequence or is reversible.

I agreed with you remember, less handholding overall. I am just talking about those particular spell-door combos. And honestly, I might have failed to recognize the puzzle because probably I solved it so fast, it didn't register as a puzzle to me. I thought it was a some kind of character skill check, which I thought as very cool because I didn't have the spells, a failure which I can overcome for my character! But then I saw the spells and staffs lying around and thought, "why?".

If you read the threads involving Tullius vs. Ulfric, the Empire relations with the Thalmor, possible ideas for DLC, etc. I'm sure that any argument that Skyrim isn't deep can be seen as completely false.

There is a morality factor. Some quest lines won't begin unless you take the plunge of murdering innocent and unarmed people. There are some questlines that present the morally incorrect act of cannibalism. On the other hand, there is the opportunity to be very good and by doing so will prevent you from being able to participate in evil questlines.

I think what the guy you quoted was wanting is an actual system that supports what you're talking about. Yes some quests present people who are bad, or doing incorrect things and on occasion give you a way to respond. But what this person wants is a sort of 'chart' that keeps track of how good or how bad you've been, thus opening up new choices for you by virtue of those choices. So evil people can be even more people.

I'm not sure if I want a morality chart or not personally.

I'm seeing a bad tread as well with RPG's, they go for too much flashy and not enough substance.

I think the same thing that's wrong with education is what is wrong with games these days. We're afraid to let kids fail. We take them through every possible situation and then simple ask them to tell us where they've been. Turn them loose on a subject like mathematics and they haven't a clue what to do... they've never had to make those types of choices. Games do the same thing... they just take us through the story, with no significant choices left up to us.

Oddly, I think that Skyrim is more like Morrowind that Oblivion was. And several other people on this forum have agreed with me. So, instead of saying something like "compared to both games Skyrim is horrible" as if this opinion is somehow objective, you should probably follow it with "in my opinion" just to make it clear that it is clearly not.

interesting, in that, the trees of me2 were almost borderline abominations, for me, lol, and, character conversations and stories that i have nothing to do with mean absolutely nothing to me, as far as, rpg's are concerned. they were more than just simplified. they were made into a mere upgrade system. not, a rpg system.

the inventory customization and how it affects gameplay is a mandatory part of rpg's, for me. though, the me1 system was a joke.

I agree with you. I don't see anything wrong with the way it is now. The only game I've ever played that got the "morality chart" close enough to perfect to make the experience enjoyable for me was "Knights of the Old Replublic". And to be honest, it took a while to get into that game because I thought it rather campy. It was only at the insistence of a friend that I continued and when I realized just how beneficial the Dark Side was, especially for dialogue options and force powers, why I couldn't have asked for anything more. I personally think that the system in Skyrim is good enough. If I valiantly kill a particular group of evil people (trying not give away spoilers), I cannot do their quests. If I side with one group of the civil war, I can't do missions for the other, etc. I'm good with that.

I gave ME2 an honest go. It wasn't my type of game. I thought the character conversations were terribly juvenlie and felt like I was watching a season of "Gossip Girl". But that's just my personal opinion... I'm obviously in the very small minority when you look at the user ratings on all the critic websites.

If you read the threads involving Tullius vs. Ulfric, the Empire relations with the Thalmor, possible ideas for DLC, etc. I'm sure that any argument that Skyrim isn't deep can be seen as completely false.

You might have said why you feel this way before, but can you go over that again? Arguing that Skyrim and Morrowind are similar is one thing, but trying to say that Skyrim actually has more in common with Morrowind than Oblivion is another thing entirely. As far as I'm concerned, there's a pretty broad consensus that Morrowind and Oblivion are at least similar, but Skyrim went off in a different direction.

kotor? i couldn't disagree more. i can't stand bioware's moral system. it's black vs white. up vs down. good vs bad. with meaningless triviality either way.

To the guy early on in the thread that talked about how the first Resident Evil was a true survival horror game, it was a survival horror game only because the control scheme was so horrifying it was a miracle if you could survive.

I listed several long ago and I kind of don't want to rehash them all. I definitely respect some of the other viewpoints with regard to which one is closer to Morrowind.

Here are just a couple:
1) I thought that Oblivion thrust the main quest upon you. Once you start off, your destiny is handed to you (literally, with the Amulet of Kings) by the Emperor. You're given this destiny as something you "must do" to save the Empire and the world, essentially. To me, that broke role-playing instantly. I couldn't, in good conscience, walk out of the sewers and say, "Ah, well. Time to open up a shop somewhere" or "I think I'll go and hunt". The quest was unavoidable. Not only that once you went to Kvatch, Oblivion gates popped up everywhere marring the otherwise beautiful landscapes and forcing you to close them if you wanted to rid the landscape of them (which became so repetitive after a while). The main quest was "always" in my face. Morrowind, when I stepped off the boat and registered, like Skyrim, I was given a lead on where to go and who to talk to, but I wasn't handed the Amulet of Kings and told that it was my destiny to save the world by the Emperor who had such a significant dream. I didn't have to go and speak to the captain of the Blades (forgot his name) after getting registered in Morrowind if I didn't want to. Same in Skyrim, if you don't want to do the main quest, nothing binds you to it at all. You can forgoe it and not feel hounded by it. It's perfect for role playing. Dragons are not nearly as tedious as Oblivion gates.

2)Skyrim seems smaller in scale than Morrowind but larger in scale than Oblivion. And this is just a personal opinion that others have shared with me... I have the sense of open-ended discovery and adventure that I had playing Morrowind. Much moreso (largely because of being "bound" from the beginning to the MQ) than Oblivion.

3)Skyrim brought back the Morrowind character model types. Elves (high, dark, wood) look more like they did in Morrowind. Using Oblivion's character creation engine, I could make a high elf look just like a hot breton with pointy ears. It seemed too LOTR to me. The elves are ugly as hell in Skyrim, just like they were in Morrowind. The Nords are tall as hell, etc.

4)Dwemer didn't inhabit Cyrodil. One of my favorite things about Morrowind were the Dwemer ruins. I was tickled with glee when I stumbled upon my first one in Skyrim and I love the fact that the deeper you delve the more you run into those disgusting swine, the Falmer... a pleasure to chop up. I understand that Oblivion had the Aelid ruins (I can't remember the exact spelling), but I wasn't crazy about them.

5)Oblivion's enemy levelling system irritated me in that, where bandits used to roam, Minotaurs, Minotaurs, and more Minotaurs gradually replaced them as I levelled up. It got to the point where I thought there was another nation of Minotaurs that had invaded Cyrodil and was threatening to exterminate all mankind. The enemy levelling system in Skyrim reminds me more of Morrowind than Oblivion. There seems to be a wider variety: stronger/weaker, different types where you'd expect them, etc.

There's more, but I don't want to write a book.

Well, like I said, I enjoyed KOTOR because of the "black" choices. That's the only Bioware game that I enjoyed for that... and once I played KOTOR, yeah, none of the others had the same appeal. They were all the same. It was good for one (or two) playthroughs for me.

oh, i see, you're talking specifically about the awesome dark side. gotcha. i defintely like it, as well.

i think the fallouts did a great job in this area, as far as, quest opportunities, choices and results. depending, you had a definite impact on the world around you. or, you wouldn't even get the quest.

i thought skyrim would take that system even further.

Have you played SW:TOR? the MMO sequel to Kotor 1 and 2?

I played it over my winter break and, for an MMO, I found it strangely compelling. I may renew my subscription this summer when I have some more free time.

Why the hell not? I was given the Amulet of Kings and went screw it adventuring time. To me I completely forgot about the main quest. Actually my mage got lost in Shivering Isle. He went through the wrong portal and had to find a way out of the Shivering Isle, he was captured there and imprisoned. Or that's how I roleplayed. When he came back he was Sheogorath and himself. Himself is sheogorath. I also had the fact that I wanted to make him an Archmage and all that. I got lost and forgot about the main quest until he was around lvl 30, which I found a suitable time to start the main quest. And I throughly enjoyed the Oblivion gates even after Kvatch I still went questing time and liked going through the portals. I never felt like the main quest was thrown unto me.

I always just thought, Amulet of Kings eh. Adventure. Adventure was my first thought. I wanted my character to be somebody before they did the main quest line. The Arch Mage of the Cyrodil college saved the world sounds alot better than Prisoner Nobody saved the world.

One more thing. I love Sean Bean as an actor. I loved him in Patriot Games, The Field, Fellowship of the Ring, etc. So, I was delighted that he was the voice of that Martin Septim in Oblivion. However, as much as I love Sean Bean, I thought his voice over was way too melodramatic... and Martin Septim really pissed me off that he's supposed to be such a bad @ss yet he sends me off to go do his fetch quests. Then he gets all the credit for saving the world from the Oblivion crisis. The other thing that bothered me... did you know you could just run through the battle in the main city all the way to the Temple without fighting a single enemy? I just ran all the way there, totally ignoring the Daedra trying to attack me. Easy peasy. At least in Skyrim you actually have to fight your way to the end (as with Morrowind).