And Torygg agreed to the duel, knowing it would be to the death. He had a choice. That's hardly an assassination. IMO it's not even murder, just like it's not "assault" when you accept a challenge to brawl in a bar and get beaten to a pulp.

It wasn't really a challenge. He stormed into solitude and used a shout to kill the high king instantly. Then he fled on a horse. The solitude gate was opened by Rogvir, i believe was his name. He was the one being executed the first time you visited solitude.

That's contradicted by members of Elisif's court, such as Sybille Stentor.

To be fair though to challenge a King to a combat to challenge his rule is nordic custom. Toryg is bound to accept.

The housecarl in Riften says something like that. He's an idiot and no one else in the entire game says anything like it. (edit- I mean the jarl's housecarl)

I know, but if you talk to the court wizard in Solitude, she says when Ulfric came we thought he only wanted an audience with the High King. If we had only known ... but it was to late. Ulfric challenged the High King to a dual. To refuse would give Ulfric reason enough to call a new moot to decair a new high king, so he had to accept.

It was a fair fight, all things considered. Ulfric just new the rules of the game and had a wild card hidden away.

And that's why everyone in Skyrim is so confused right now. Nords are undergoing a transformation. They were the barbairian race when things started back in arena. Rough, strong, mead drinkers who would go on adventure and smash some skulls rather than stay at home or deal in the world of politices. But slowly, they've become more and more involved with the politics of Tamirel. They're becoming "modern" in that worlds sense. Thats why many nords fear there way of life is going away. Tradition vs Modernisation. The Nords as a people don't know what is more important to them. That's why this happened the way it did. Imperial Law had been slowly working its way into Skyrim, but at the same time it's traditions of the strongest leading were still valid. The new and old layers of the government were rubbing against one another, and it finally caught flame with the banning of Talos, Skyrim's "Son".

And that's why I really like Skyrim. My fav race is changing, like a real race of people would. Both sides are in the right, both morally and in terms with their law. And in he end, the side that is "evil" will be the side who lost and gave up afterwards. Because it's not the victors who write history, but the survivors.

Cant argue with that. Im glad people like you can offer an intelligent view on things rather than just spouting there opinions on the matter. I still side with the empire no matter what though. One more question though. In your opinion do you think the whole cival war could have been avoided if the treaty between the empire and thalmor never occured? i personally think that ulfric would have found a reason to fight anyway. But whats your opinion?

Yea but solitude is an Imperial city. Under the rule of Empire, would the king be bound by nordic customs?

That's untrue. A formal challenge was issued and Torygg accepted.

Even if they are a province of the empire many provinces are still ruled by their custom, a good example would be slavery in morrowind.

If the treaty hadn't happened, I don't think Ulfric would have had the chance to fight even if he had wanted to. With all the fighting at the front, so close to the Imperial City, and with dwindling men and resorces the Empire would probably have been ready to get on it's hands and knees to beg for support from Skyrim. But I'm a little more scetchy on the lore involving the war than I would like to be, so it's a harder call for me to make.

The Storm Cloaks are the Thalmor's Puppets I know, I just read the biography thing of Ulfric in the Thalmor Embassy, they're using him to have access into Skyrim and are indirectly supporting him but still not letting either side win.

the stormcloaks have valid points. They wish to be free. the empire is more concerned with holding onto a crumbling empire. I read in some book how a nord legion helped free the imperial city. Basically i look at the stormcloaks as disenfranchised ex soldiers. The thalmor are purely evil in my opinion. The empire should never have bowed down. They reap what they sow. Also the first emperors of tamriel were nords. Plus the empire is kinda dikes if they win.

I agree that the thalmor are really the cause of everything but before the cival war, what did the legion do to oppress the nords?

Indeed if there is a province not taken by force by Tiber it's Skyrim

The Thalmor have access to Skyrim under the terms of the White-Gold Concordat, a treaty signed by the Emperor, not Ulfric. Are they manipulating everyone and everything to their own advantage? Yes, and that includes the Empire, who are just as much their "puppets" as anyone else involved on either side, as both sides surely know all too well. They just have different ideas about when and where and how to cut the puppetteer's strings.

I think we can all agree that in future game or dlc, that we all wanna push the Thalmor out of Skyrim. and hopefully... all of Tamriel

That is something that both empire and stormcloaks supporters can agree on I suppose.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Grandmaster_Duel
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Arena_(faction)
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Wizard_Duel

let me ask ya this. Why did the empire outlaw a tradition that they themselves practice and and did that AFTER the duel was done? Why does the Empire call Ulfric a murderer for soemthign the very military of the empire uses for advancement and is also viewed upon as a pasttime?

But its ok for the Empire to outlaw something that they themseleves do and do it when they dont liek the results.........and thats ok? Really would we even have a civil war if the empire didnt step in and try to unlawfully condemn Ulfric of murder while he was using a practice that is legal in both Skyrim AND Cryodill?

The Legion is not the Empire, they are simply the military arm of its leadership. It's the Empire the Stormcloaks have issues with (the Legion are just the ones the Empire sends to do the actual fighting).

The Empire signed a treaty with the Aldmeri Dominion at the end of the Great War, about 26 years prior to the start of the game. The treaty removed Talos (the primary god of current Nord culture and religion) from the list of "official" Divines, reducing their number from Nine to Eight. It made it a crime to worship Talos or acknowledge him as a god. Basically it made it a crime for the Nords to practice their own religion.

About a year after that, the Nord rulers in the Reach were trying to reclaim the hold after having been thrown out by an uprising of the native Reachmen (what you would now call Forsworn). Ulfric and a Nord militia under his leadership agreed to help them, in exchange for their assistance the Jarl of Markarth agreed to allow the worship of Talos in his city. The Nords retook Markarth and the Reach, those who wanted to worship Talos could do so without fear of reprisal, all fine and dandy... except it was still a violation of the treaty the Empire signed with the Thalmor. When the Thalmor found out that there was free and open Talos worship going on in Markarth, they demanded that the terms of the treaty be enforced. The Empire complied and the Jarl turned Ulfric and his men over to them for arrest and imprisonment. The Jarl was rewarded for his compliance by not being charged with anything, even though he was just as guilty of violating the treaty as anyone else involved for allowing Talos worship in the first place. He got to keep his title and his throne and Ulfric and his men went to jail.

Since then the Thalmor have been allowed free rein in Imperial territory to seek out and punish anyone that they claim is a Talos-worshipper. They do this with Imperial support and protection according to the terms of the above-mentioned treaty. That means that for the past 25 years, there has been a Thalmor presence in Skyrim and their agents have been allowed by the Empire to abduct, torture, and kill citizens at their own discretion for practicing a religion that they and the Empire agreed to abolish. That's why the Stormcloaks consider the current situation to be oppressive.

Ulfric started the civil war and even though the practice of battle is legal in skyrim the fact that he used a shout is unfair and in my opinion violates the rules of a fair and "just" ingagement.

They all are and they are to blind to see it, the Thalmor want control so its easier to shatter the Mundas. What would they have left to fight for nothing, they need to unite but they are to egomaniacal to do so even with a dangerous threat that looms over them.

the only problem is whenever we duel in the ingame and even against that drunken lil [censored] that gives all the stormcloaks a badname, even he when we start to duel will set out the rules. Ulfric was well known as being a thuum user, so i find it very funny that no one thought to say "No shouting".

But how did Ulfric start the civil war? If the Empire didnt step in there would be a moot and then everyone would vote on the next high king....i dont see where the war or bloodshed is at in that situation.

This timeline can't be right. Ulfric would have to be in his late 40s at the bare minimum.



Opinion.

It was either ban the worship of talos or the entire Empire bee destroyed. Without the Empire the dominion would launch a full scale invasion of skyrim. The empire has a larger and better equiped military than the stormcloaks. What makes the stormcloaks think that if the empire cant win against the dominion that they could?