Why We Are Mad: The Thread

Post » Mon May 14, 2012 2:41 pm

I'm upset because if this piece of crap is canon, all of my hundreds of hours into TES games will be worth NOTHING because they'll retcon EVERYTHING I'VE LEARNED!
Okay that was just pulled out of your ass. Read the forums, there's loads of lore threads about saying why that isn't even remotely true.

And of course the thread title is "we." Appeal to Majority is a common debate fallacy where if you pretend you aren't stating your own opinion and claim to be the spokesman for an imagined silent (often rhetoric of creative oppression is used as well but I digress) majority you can somehow jockey that into a position of greater credibility.

It's not you, OP, but I have seen way too many people on way too many topics of way too many levels of importance or unimportance try to use this tactic. It seems like every time I turn around someone speaking for themselves, but maybe with views that other share (like this, we can say for sure, you are pissed, some other people are pissed, okay) someone is trying to pretend like he or she is the spokesman for some united group of noble "rebels" out of a story appealing against some imagined "tyrant" figure.

Let me say this nice and slow and clear, to you and anyone else listening: when you try to say "we are united," all you do is remind me that I am, in fact, not and that you are, by saying "we," misrepresenting "me," who I like a lot more than "we." So watch your words. I'm not mad at all, at Zeni and Bethesda anyway.
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NAtIVe GOddess
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 4:40 pm

Let me say this nice and slow and clear, to you and anyone else listening: when you try to say "we are united," all you do is remind me that I am, in fact, not and that you are, by saying "we," misrepresenting "me," who I like a lot more than "we." So watch your words. I'm not mad at all, at Zeni and Bethesda anyway.

I'm with TengenToppa - I'm actually rather pleased that Zenimax was smart enough to hire Matt Firor and allow him to build such an awesome studio of passionate people to create their vision of 'the best MMO ever made.'

I'll wait and give them a chance to show us why it's the best.
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Dagan Wilkin
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 1:49 am

It is not unlikely that Zenimax Online Studios, who is making TES:O, has been gathering information about the TES universe from Bethesda Gaming Studios' developers. Both studios are part of Zenimax and sharing of information and knowledge is common within a larger corporation. But ZOS not taking BGS developers away from BGS, they have their own team who is making this MMO. The BGS developers will continue to work on their own projects, such as Dawnguard.

When people say Bethesda, they could be talking about Bethesda Softworks, which is ESO's publisher. Pete Hines is part of that, as is Todd, Pete even called ESO "my game" on twitter. So to assume the two are completely divorced is very naive.
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Jessica Raven
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 3:34 pm

And most of the people here defending TES Online are probably just looking to stroke their egos with an argument, like most of the bethesda forum members. Dont take what they say too seriously.
Your opinionated, misinformed generalizing statements are too much to even bother responding to in full. But this portion just takes the cake.
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Andrea P
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 3:36 pm

  • "Theme Park" style flashy quirky artstyle (like WoW) rather than the series' Tolkien fantasy artstyle
  • Pants-on-its-head stupid lore that retcons several things:
The Ebonheart Pact between the Dunmer and the Argonians is mind-blowingly stupid, if anything the Dunmer would be FORCING the Argonians to fight at the time because they were slaves to the Dunmer, and even if they "abolished" slavery for the puposes of fighting a common ally, don't you think that'd be mentioned SOMEWHERE when the Argonians were complaining about slavery in Morrowind which takes place AFTER THIS GAME?!

"Also, your soul has already been stolen by Molag Bal, which is the reason you can come back from death over and over again, and the starting plot is that you're fighting Molag Bal to get your soul back from him".....wow, so you're saying Molag Bal has the power to steal everyones soul yet he seems to be having trouble taking over the world?
  • Its nothing but a cash-grab on the MMO market
"Not all provinces are included in their entirety; Zenimax Online is keeping large areas inaccessible to save them for use as expansion content. Nonetheless, every major area is represented to some extent." Thats blantantly telling us they're releasing the game unfinished.

"Recreateing the freedom Elder Scrolls players expect within the World of Warcraft-style mechanics Zenimax Online is using for this MMO would be impossible without changing the way that players interact with the world." This is telling us its a WoW clone.
  • Uses the Hero Engine, an engine that has only two absolutely terrible MMOs under its belt which are BOTH WoW clones.
  • Raises a middle-finger to everyone whos played the past Elder Scrolls games by retconning several well-established political relations in the universe.
The only way I could EVER not be pissed off about this game is if it was declared by Bethesda to be non-canon or to take place in a parallel universe.


Came to laugh at butthurt cool kids who jumped on the "no TES multiplayer" outrage bandwagon, leaving impressed by the OP. I'm glad you have legitimate reasons for disliking the idea of an ES MMO.
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Vicki Gunn
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 9:36 pm

I just don't like the fact that the lore is being screwed up. I also don't like the fact that Nords, Dunmer and Argonians are all friends now. If anything the Dunmer would force the Argonians to fight with them. Nords wouldnt ally them selves with a elf race and a beast race over men from any type of threat. I could actually see the nords fighting this threat by them selves then allying with the Dunmer and Argonians. Learning from the lore of the little know about Argonians, they are a race that worry about there own interest then the out side unless it affects them directly. I think they should of did a better job making these fractions. Lets see how this is going to turn out. I'm a long time fan of the elder scrolls back in 1999 with Daggerfall and if the Lore is stupid in this elder scrolls from zenimax - im tossing it in the garbage and hope it wont be added to the actual lore of the elder scrolls. I always had faith in Bethesda and hope this game comes out ok, so im just going to sit back and wait how this turns out.
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Naomi Ward
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 7:05 pm

I just don't like the fact that the lore is being screwed up. I also don't like the fact that Nords, Dunmer and Argonians are all friends now.. I think they should of did a better job making these fractions. Lets see how this is going to turn out. I'm a long time fan of the elder scrolls back in 1999 with Daggerfall and if the Lore is stupid in this elder scrolls from zenimax - im tossing it in the garbage and hope it wont be added to the actual lore of the elder scrolls. I always had faith in Bethesda and hope this game comes out ok, so im just going to sit back and wait how this turns out

Personally I wish the factions weren't race based at all and any race could join any faction or not join if they didn't want to participate in the war. But the Pact is definitely a stretch.
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Emzy Baby!
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 2:48 pm

I like the art style and graphics, but only because it makes the game have a good chance of running on my PC with minimal lag or framerate compared to Skyrim. To me, it feels like a bit of a shout out to people that don't have super computers.

As for the lore, I don't really have an opinion. It's a shame it had to be altered, but I'm sure the provinces we visit will be lore friendly enough.
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m Gardner
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 10:29 pm

I just don't like the fact that the lore is being screwed up. I also don't like the fact that Nords, Dunmer and Argonians are all friends now. If anything the Dunmer would force the Argonians to fight with them. Nords wouldnt ally them selves with a elf race and a beast race over men from any type of threat. I could actually see the nords fighting this threat by them selves then allying with the Dunmer and Argonians. Learning from the lore of the little know about Argonians, they are a race that worry about there own interest then the out side unless it affects them directly. I think they should of did a better job making these fractions. Lets see how this is going to turn out. I'm a long time fan of the elder scrolls back in 1999 with Daggerfall and if the Lore is stupid in this elder scrolls from zenimax - im tossing it in the garbage and hope it wont be added to the actual lore of the elder scrolls. I always had faith in Bethesda and hope this game comes out ok, so im just going to sit back and wait how this turns out.
What lore is being stepped on? I see none. As for why the Dunmer, Nords and Argos are in alliance? It actually happened just as you proposed. It's in the interview with Paul Sage. The Nords were fighting and losing territory so they turned to the Dunmer. Both of them realized the growing threat of the other powers and asked the Argonians to join their alliance. While that is kind of a stretch it makes some sense. Especially since we don't know much about how the races interacted back then. Black Marsh is going to be weird though, it is supposed to be in a state of chaos around this time. With Pirates, Bandit Kings and Old Imperial Warlords holding much of the power and controlling what's what in the province.
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Dagan Wilkin
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 8:40 pm

just guna say this thread is beautiful. it describes exactly how I feel about TES: O
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Jon O
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 11:49 pm

And that would be?
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Latino HeaT
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 5:18 pm

What lore is being stepped on? I see none. As for why the Dunmer, Nords and Argos are in alliance? It actually happened just as you proposed. It's in the interview with Paul Sage. The Nords were fighting and losing territory so they turned to the Dunmer. Both of them realized the growing threat of the other powers and asked the Argonians to join their alliance. While that is kind of a stretch it makes some sense. Especially since we don't know much about how the races interacted back then. Black Marsh is going to be weird though, it is supposed to be in a state of chaos around this time. With Pirates, Bandit Kings and Old Imperial Warlords holding much of the power and controlling what's what in the province.


I know the story and I know the Lore very very well. like i said ive played this game sense Daggerfall. This story sounds so stupid to me. Nords are going to join up with the Dunmer because of Necromancer allying with Daedra Prince? That right there is destroying the character of the Nords a stubborn race. Not forgetting the hatred they have for each other over battle of red mountain and the fact the Dunmer feel that Nords took alot of there land away from them. Also the Dunmer are going to join forces with Argonian- A beast race that the dark elves see as lower race?. Doesn't matter how you turn this story around, it sounds stupid to me. they could of did a better job putting these fractions together. I'm not saying i wont buy the game- ive been a elder scrolls fan for a long time and still going to be a fan. This MMO is going to ruin alot for me as a player. Unless they fix the story or fractions before it releases. If it doesn't win me over with the story at that time then the game will be my first elder scrolls thats going into the garbage. If it turns out to be good then it will be fine. This is my personal opinion on it all.
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Andy durkan
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 12:07 am

Snip
Well this may be sloppy because I'm typing it from a mobile device but...

I also know the lore very well and so do many others. In fact in the lore forum here we came to a consensus that it is actually NOT stepping on the lore. It's fine that you don't think it's lore friendly but you should support your claims if you want to be taken seriously. Enemies have worked together before. Even the worst of them. Sparta and Athens worked together against the Persians and they hated one another. Germans collaborated with the Japanese in WWII and they would have incredibly different outlooks and both were both rather radical purists.

The Nords even have worked with the Dunmer before. I think you have preconceived notions of how the races would have acted but not a whole lot to support those notions. Not all the Dunmer are racist slave owners and not all the Nords are Mer killing beer swilling barbarian warriors.

You are underestimating practicality. You would be very surprised by what normal people will turn to when they are desperate enough. You and no one else including me truly knows how people in Tamriel thought back then either. With the growing pressure from the newly formed Aldmeri Dominion and Daggerfall Covenant as well as the chaos brewing in Cyrodiil with their Imperial kin falling under the power of the machinations of a Masterfull Necromancer and a Daedric Prince. In desperation where would they turn if the Daggerfall Covenant wasn't interested or only wanted their surrender? They may not get along famously with the Dunmer but there is nothing to suggest they would not work together begrudgingly.

It is not really that incredulous, and I am a hardcoe Nord and Dunmer fan, well aware of how they view one another. However even recent views when taken into account are promising. The Nords took in the Dunmer refugees and did not interfere with their claimant of Solstheim in the 4th Era. The most recent views of the Nords as true Mer haters in Skyrim is mostly due to recent events and the Thalmor as well as the whole thing with the Falmer. Even that has things that excuse the Nords hatred of Mer, initially they got along with the Falmer but then the Eye of Magnus was discovered and the Night of Tears happened. They even respectfully buried the leader of hte Falmer, the Snow Prince in a gesture of respect.

In the past the Dunmer and Nords respected one another even when they did hate each other in the various wars and disputes they have had. They are not far fetched.

Now here's where it is touchy ground. The Argonians. We simply need more info than we have. But going off what I know I will try to explain. As far as I know at the time the MMO is taking place is a rather bad time for Black Marsh. There are hordes of Bandits and Pirates everywhere and Imperial Warlords are scattered throughout the province ruling the old pre-Potentate Empire's old holdings. How organized the Argonians are at this point is unknown. There was a major spike in slaves at this time I believe. We know the Argonians sold their own into slavery and similar to the various rival tribes in Africa most of the actual slave nabbing was done by locals like the Archeins. Here is something interesting.

Archeins: During the era when other races tried to put plantations in Argonia, Archeins were very powerful, and made fortunes by selling other Argonians into slavery. Since the other races realized Argonia is unfit for plantations, they have gone bankrupt.

This could mean the Archeins are in control and are on very friendly terms with the Dunmer for the purpose of selling slaves. I think that Black Marsh is a bit of a Kleptocracy during this period and even until later in the 3rd Era. Of interest is the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Argonian_Account

Now if this is the case or even if it is not, the Argonians need protection from the Dunmer slaving interests and the growing threats of the other powers as well as the whole Molag Bal and Mannimarco thing with the Imperials. The way they are getting there protection from the Dunmer might be that they intend for this alliance to improve the relations with the Dunmer and possibly convince the Dunmer they are not lesser beings. It also is worth mentioning that the Dunmer and Nords supposedly approached the Argonians after working out their own deal. When two peoples that consider your people to be inferior ask for your help when you need it, you kind of feel a need to prove yourself and them wrong. Just working a theory here. It is also possible the Hist, Greybeards and the Tribunal had some fun kind of commute and that netted them a necessary if unstable alliance with old hatreds by nature being a common problem and those problems commonly rearing their ugly little heads.
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Jason Wolf
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 3:39 pm

The lore is easy to explain and works just fine, the biggest gripes are the look and combat style. The colors are too bright and the combat is hotbar action based combat and not real-time action based combat everything else is all speculation we know almost 100% nothing about this game so these are all shots in the dark, even the small things we do know are still unknown to the point where we can't even make a close guess about .

Meh, real time combat is less efficient that what we have. No matter, that feature doesn't make TES games. Those are features that aren't vital to keeping the spirit of the IP, and therefor, I believe they can be altered to fit the MMO space a bit more easily. We should be more upset if there's a very low level of interactivity in the game world. Is exploration and the random quest systems on a small scale what we would see from a TES game? Meaning, can we walk randomly and find things that we can do without getting quests to do them, can we play the way we want? We should be unhappy that they've ignored housing, which is a huge aspect of the recent TES games. And to add to that, they are most likely adding a bank instead, even though banks don't exist in TES. We should be upset if the lore, cities, characters, and spells are horribly inaccurate to what we already know about TES. Some of the things they are doing can be a bit odd, but most of the things they are doing aren't TES IP vital. FPV and twitch combat is not a vital system, as most of us do not play TES games for their combat systems.

You need to be able to take a step back and anolyze the right and wrong choice, why you would do something and the thought process behind that choice.
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Bigze Stacks
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 9:40 pm

We should be unhappy that they've ignored housing, which is a huge aspect of the recent TES games. And to add to that, they are most likely adding a bank instead, even though banks don't exist in TES.
I agree with most of what you said but this part may require some explanation. For me and possibly you. I am guessing banks in MMO's are where you leave your items and gold when there is no housing system right? Just need that clarified, I was wondering where people were gonna stash their [censored].

Secondly, we probably do not see banks in the main TES series because there is no reason to create that mechanic in the games. I am pretty sure the Imperials or someone else would have thought about the idea of banking in the Lore of TES but the devs just never saw a reason to include it ingame. Given the information gathering organizations in TES like the Blades or Penitus Oculatus, I would assume banks would be in place for agents to acquire funding from secret Special accounts when on missions. It is a bit of a necessity for that kind of an organization so I am sure they are in the Lore. I have no idea of there is any lore on it however.

Edit: Yup they had banks in Daggerfall. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Banks Damn, I wish they never got rid of that mechanic...
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Guy Pearce
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 11:42 pm

And to add to that, they are most likely adding a bank instead, even though banks don't exist in TES.

There are a very limited number of toilets and practically no bathrooms in ES games either. Does that mean most creatures in ES lore don't get rid of body waste?



Not a great example I guess because technically everyone could take care of business in the bushes or wilderness no matter how impractical that idea would be for the cities, but I think the point is still clear. There are a lot of things that would exist in ES lore that don't exists in the games just for practical game play reasons.
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Madeleine Rose Walsh
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 12:06 pm

It is not unlikely that Zenimax Online Studios, who is making TES:O, has been gathering information about the TES universe from Bethesda Gaming Studios' developers. Both studios are part of Zenimax and sharing of information and knowledge is common within a larger corporation. But ZOS not taking BGS developers away from BGS, they have their own team who is making this MMO. The BGS developers will continue to work on their own projects, such as Dawnguard.

Ah, but Umrahel, is Bethesda Gaming Studios satisfied with how much Zenimax Online Studios is listening to their input and suggestions for the Elder Scrolls Online? :whistling:
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JUan Martinez
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 11:13 pm



Ah, but is Bethesda Gaming Studios satisfied with how much Zenimax Online Studios is listening to them and their suggestions for the Elder Scrolls Online? :whistling:
Do you think BGS cares? They are probably just happy that the product is growing. I am sure they are satisfied with the product in terms of the lore or they would probably say something. Luckily TES lore is easy. Most of the 'books' that contain most of the Lore are biased and subject to misinformation. Who knows what is correct and what is not?

Most of what we know of Black Marsh came from the Argonian Account books and that was written by an Imperial in the 3rd Era's 4th Century. The MMO takes place before even that. So Black Marsh is practically a blank slate at that point. Just nail the, Hist, Most of the city locations, different types of Argonians, some Dunmer raiding parties, Imperial Warlords, bandits, include the kothringi and Lilmothit and we got most of what we know. I mean that leaves a lot out but you get my point I think or hope.
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Cat Haines
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 4:42 pm

To those who don't like it. Why not just ignore the game. Wadaya say?
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Emmie Cate
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 3:30 pm

Ah, but Umrahel, is Bethesda Gaming Studios satisfied with how much Zenimax Online Studios is listening to them and their suggestions for the Elder Scrolls Online? :whistling:
How would I know how people I don't know feel about something I don't know anything about. :P But, this isn't just some outside studio that acquired the rights to do a TES MMO. They're all operating under the same umbrella, so I would imagine there is a common interest to make the best out of it and do the name 'The Elder Scrolls' justice. I think you just need to have a little faith that it's really not as gloomy as you think it is or will be.
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Avril Louise
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 1:53 pm

A lot can change in 800 years. Hell, a lot can change in 50. I don't see English people moaning about William the Conquerer anymore... Why would Argonian slaves in Morrowind talk about events long passed?

Ah, not that guy again -_-
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Leah
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 2:49 am

Not what guy?
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Killah Bee
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 9:41 pm

Not what guy?

William Conqs I think :P
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Far'ed K.G.h.m
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 3:43 pm

Of course wall-of-useful-information-posts get ignored...
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kristy dunn
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 2:26 am

How would I know how people I don't know feel about something I don't know anything about. :tongue: ... They're all operating under the same umbrella, so I would imagine there is a common interest to make the best out of it and do the name 'The Elder Scrolls' justice.

Yes, I do believe that both studios want to make the Elder Scrolls Online a profitable product and do good business with it. But this does not necessarily mean that they agree on how to do so. So, as a result, my question does stand as unanswered.

But, on Page 1 of the thread entitled "Zenimax or Bethesda? [merged similar topics]," I noticed that BootySweat said something very interesting in post #2:

Each of these studios has their own independent culture and vision, but they are part of the same family.
Source: http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1371383-zenimax-or-bethesda-merged-similar-topics/

If this is true for each studio's official vision and its resulting general vision, then could this not mean that Bethesda Gaming Studios and Zenimax Online Studios have different and disagreeing visions for the Elder Scrolls Online?

This certainly seems possible. For instance, consider what Todd Howard told joystiq:

With all the growing Skyrim has done and will continue to do in DLC, it seems that Bethesda has omitted the most obvious opportunity for evolution: An online component. We asked Howard why Dovahkiin is a lone wanderer in a gaming industry that seems to be increasingly obsessed with finding a foothold in the MMO market. The answer, as it happens, comes down to a matter of taste.

"I like this kind of game better," he said. "You know, it's what most of us are into. I'm not really an MMO guy. I respect them, I look at them, but I don't play them. It feels more real to me when I'm the hero and it's crafted for that. A community aspect to it, I recognize a lot of people would want that in a game like this, but it changes the flavor for me.["]
Source: http://www.joystiq.com/2011/08/31/todd-howard-on-skyrims-worthwhile-glitches-mmos-and-when-big-i/

What do you think about this, Umrahel?
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Anna Kyselova
 
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