Yep, and you may notice that it is a Thief skill. That basically means that if I wanted to play a mage, and the game was designed well enough so that the lockpicking skill was actually needed and useful, I would need to invest in the lockpicking skill to open chests and doors, which I hate. I also hate that we can't bash locks as a Warrior.

Have you ever played a mage in Oblivion? Most fun I have ever had playing a mage in a TES game. I see a locked door, I just Evaporate it. I'm a mage, I shouldn't have to bend over and do the little lockpicking thing...

There's nothing saying that a mage can't use a lockpick - except arbitrary class rules that state so, but have no bearing on anything ever.

You want to play a mage, and you want to open locks? Then you can play a mage who is skilled in lockpicking. Problem solved.

I agree with this. So much.

Also, the other point is that fans feel they have more a right to the material than the people who's material it actually is.

Fans complain about what Lucas did with Star Wars - but... Star Wars is Lucas' story! Not theirs! Quite frankly, George Lucas can do whatever he wants to Star Wars, it's his story, his fiction, not anyone else's.

I, for one, as an aspiring writer, would be rather insulted if fans of my work decided that they had more authority over my works than I did.

Star Wars is Lucas' work, and he can do as he pleases with it, Elder Scrolls is Bethesda's work, and they can do as they please with it, and it is up to the fans to like it or not, not dictate what the vision of someone else's creative work should or shouldn't be.

Another example, in addition to your Star Wars one - I am a huge fan of X-Men, and I am a huge fan of the movie franchise. The movies haven't always followed the X-Men source material very accurately. Instead of feeling a false sense of entitlement that the directors, producers, writers, and actors should make the movie according to my vision and interpretation of the source material, I let them do their work, and then I judged it based upon the criteria that I have for what makes a good X-Men movie. Some movies nailed it, others got it a little bit less so than others (although I love all 5 of those movies), but the one thing I didn't do was run around as if my vision and interpretation of the series is the one that counts. I either accept the movies as a valid interpretation of the X-Men source material, or I don't, but I don't run around proclaiming that the movies should be done my way.

So no, I am not a fan of the "well we need to have our voices heard so Bethesda will do what we want next time" argument, because really, its not their place to decide what Bethesda should or shouldn't do with future games, it's their place to determine if they want to buy it or not.

One person's desires for the franchise are not more important than another's. The people who complain do not deserve to have their opinion taken any more seriously than those who do like it and don't want changes to be made. Us who like it, us wanting to see Bethesda keep on the current path, our desires are just as important as the people who complain.

Which is why ultimately it's not up to us to determine what Bethesda should or shouldn't do, it's up to Bethesda to create a game in their vision, and up to us to determine if we want to buy it and play it or not. It is not our creative property to decide what the vision should or should not be.

Let's remove all the armors from the game. You want to play a warrior, and you want to have protection? Then you can play a warrior who is skilled in Alteration. Problem solved.

Not the same thing in the least bit, but the game you are describing would be Daggerfall - the game with no armor skills...

Some of you guys need to cool down, this is not the place for insults


On topic, I think Skyrim is overall a superb game and like some of the changes like the removal of attributes. There are a few niggles I'm not particulary fond of though.

• The PC UI, it's clunky and that's the one thing a UI shouldn't be. The whole skill UI have too much swooping eye candy and too little of user efficiency.
  
• Too many dragons. They are very cool at first, but after a while they starts to feel like the Morrowind cliffracers, and it becomes a chore to fight them, not challenging or fun.
  
• Too much of the dialogue writing is simply just too mean. If you ask someone what they do, they shouldn't respond "are you stupid, can't you see I'm a blacksmith/whatever!?", lots of mean kids and so on. I mean, seriously, everyone threats the player as an idiot/slave, including main quest people after the main quest, and yet the player is the damn Dragonborn. Some respect please.
  
• There are a fair share of quests that are painfully linear with zero player/dialogue choices. Most quests in the previous TES games have this issue too, but it really feels outdated now with a 2011 game. There are some amazing quests though, but the bad ones really stick out like a sore thumb. And if the game offer choices, it's often just between two evil ones. When I first entered Riften and heard how bad things were in town, my first reaction was that I'm gonna do quests here and clean things up. That never happened, and after the Civil War things actually got even worse, as the most hateful NPC suddenly got in charge of the city. I feel it really should have been possible to clean up that place, and I'm very disappointed it isn't.
  
• The idea of becoming the master of the guilds, and it only take a few ingame days. The player isn't an administrative desk person, but an adventurer. Folks may appreciate the errands we run for them, but have never done the sort of politicking I'd expect of a future guild leader. I thought the Imperial Cult got it just right in Morrowind when they said that further advancement would require a full-time commitment to the work of the cult--a sort of commitment not really suited to adventurous types. The guilds in Daggerfall worked sort of the same way, you never became the leader in those either.

Could you please explain how it is ''not the same in the least bit''? It's removing feature of the game, and saying that it's not needed because some other feature does the same thing. AKA armor/alteration.

And I didn't say armor skill. I said armors in general.

watup, hey i just started playing skyrim and I was wondering if you knew how to get Lydia back? i accidently clicked on her last option..you know like first one saids..stay here or follow me.
I looked in several places, shes not at home. If you have any clues plz hit me up..ty bro

I will, but you will just disregard what I have to say because you don't like it.

It is because armors are actually different styles, which lead to different gameplay. It's not just as simple as they all give armor rating.

Heavy Armor = slow, bulky, but higher armor rating, can get into the middle of combat and take a beating.
Light Armor = quicker, agile, but can't take as many blows.
Alteration = In addition to, or in lieu of, actual armor, to either enhance the armor you already have, or to provide armor when your clothing offers none. This allows a mage (who would likely not be putting many points into Strength / Stamina, depending on the game) to be able to have some sort of protection, but not have to lug around heavy armor when they have little to no strength to be carrying tons of stuff around in their inventory. Wearing only clothing allows for better stealth opportunities as well, allowing the mage to better avoid combat altogether and fight their opponents in a more cerebral fashion, getting the drop on them.

Lockpicking and Open Lock both do the exact same thing - they open a lock. There is no gameplay that is changed by how you go about doing this, only a roleplay aspect of using a lockpick or a spell. Also, the ability to just use a spell to unlock chests completely negates the entire Lockpick tree - why invest in the Lockpick perks when you can just cast a spell and use your perks elsewhere?

If you're responding to the thread subject in general, please say so. If your bullet items are all directed towards me, then you're significantly off base on every one of them. Any things I've ever said about anything here, are strictly my opinion, I don't pretend they are 'global' to everyone, and never have claimed such. Same as for you and everyone else. But I value my opinion, and it's pretty similar to a lot of other players who frequent these forums. Sorry if you don't agree with them. As for what kind of terms I or anyone else chooses to use to describe what we think about the game, it's a free internet. If any of it is against forum rules, I'm sure a moderator will say something. If not, then feel free to *deal with it*.

We've played the game too, and if we want to *in our opinions* call a spade a spade, then we shall do so. If you want to play the forum censor, yer not going to get very far. Instead of playing opinion censor, you could alternatively just not read or post to threads that obvioiusly weren't created to agree with your personal worldview. You got options too, ya know? Lotta threads in this place. When I recently posted to a thread about what we all liked about Skyrim, I posted a number of things I liked about the game, and refrained from listing what I didn't like. Please give people who choose to post their dislikes here the same courtesy, thank you.

Oh, and none of the things you mention in your 3.) bullet item are anything I give a rip about or have argued for one way or another, except maybe the attributes system could have been done better- but as far as my complaints about Skyrim go, that's pretty low on my priority list. Just for the record, my list: Lack of balance, utterly [censored] UI, poor writing and shallow forgettable quests, awful crafting implementation (see: Lack of Balance), items of all kinds are pretty thin, repetitive, forgettable and uninteresting, and surely a half dozen other things I've forgotten at the moment. Oh, and feel free to take Plebie's advice to block me out if you so choose, I have nothing against people closing their ears when they don't hear what they want to hear like he did- it's a free world (mostly). I'm a bit more open minded than that, but that's just me.

4 and 5 especially for me. I have to put tape over the compass on my TV. Urrgghhh.

But hey, at least we got Kinect shouts!

..........

I'm not disregarding your opinion, I'm just disagreeing with it, because I don't think you have a valid point.

I will transpose what you said with how I imagine the lockpicking system should be like.

Bashing: slow, noisy, and not very effective
Lockpicking, effective, fast, can do it at any level, requires lockpicks
Open lock spells: effective, fast, but require a ton of mana at low to medium levels and a high alteration skill

It allows for more varied gameplay, and a more distinct distinction between the three major archetypes.
You say ''why invest in the Lockpick perks when you can just cast a spell and use your perks elsewhere?'', but as I said, Open Lock require lots of mana and a high Alteration skill, that a Thief might not have.

Don't like it, don't play it.

First off - you don't have to apologize for me not agreeing with you. It should be the other way around, considering the fact that me not agreeing with you means I get quite possibly the greatest RPG ever created.

As far as it being a free internet - it may be a free internet and you may not technically be breaking any rules, but a bit of class and tact can go along way. It's not illegal or "against the rules" to be rude and obnoxious, but trust me when I say that having a little tact and class gets you a lot further that whining, crying, and stamping your feet like a spoiled child. That's exactly what using terms like "dumbed down", or "hand holding" is doing. Being a whiny brat is not against the rules, but it is certainly not an accepted attitude.

As far as my other options, it is kind of hard when positive threads are instantly swarmed by the people who hate the game, having to spread their hate everywhere they go. It's kind of hard when I actually want to talk about game mechanics and content, and the thread instantly falls to the second page due to everyone and their mother believing they need to make a brand new post talking about what they don't like about the game - which is typically the same damn topic that's been discussed a thousand times over. Oh and yes - this has happened to me - many times, where I create a thread with a perfectly valid game discussion, and it goes unnoticed because of everyone whining, crying, and stamping their feet with their threads of negativity.

There is also the notion that - if you don't like something, why are you involving yourself in the community? I'm not saying a negative take can't be posted here, but if the game is hated as much as the whining and crying implies, why would you be here? I hate WoW, despise it, think it's an atrocious RPG and at best a very mediocre video game. I don't flood the WoW forums talking about how much the game svcks.

Or for a better example, since people love to use the "we love the series and want to see it get better" card - when I played Star Wars Galaxies, when I felt they ruined that game and I no longer enjoyed playing it, not only did I stop playing, but I also stopped posting in the forums. As I no longer played the game, as I no longer enjoyed it, there was no reason left for me to linger around the forums spreading my negativity. I made my opinions known as the changes were being made, but once it was clear that the changes were final, and the game was something I no longer enjoyed, I left the game and the forums. I had no reason left to be there.

Same goes for Star Wars: The Old Republic, an MMO of a game franchise that I have been a fan of. When I played that game, realized how much I didn't like it, I didn't go on the forums whining about everything. I simply didn't join the forums. I think I browsed, to see what the consensus was, maybe made a post, and called it a day. Why would I linger around on a website for a product I don't enjoy? It makes no sense.

Meanwhile, people like me want to come to these forums, discuss the game, and not have to worry about positive or negative reactions, we want to discuss the actual game, the content, mechanics, character builds, tips, whatever, and instead I see the same posts over and over flooding the forums, and actual conversation doesn't get to happen because those threads fall off the first page in the midst of all the insessent whining and tantrum throwing.

1. the bug or what ever it is that dosn't let you have a masked darkbrotherhood cowle or which ever one it was that had the mask going over your mouth and nose.

2. the fact that the collage quests are way to short.

3. skooma isn't skooma any more

4. raident quests

Well, I seen all of these complaints if not most, discussed on this forum many times already, but I'll tell you my thoughts about some of your dislikes about the game.

Your second dislike: I can agree with you about the lack of spells, I think I know why a lot were left out, because of the time Bethesda put into the 20 dragon shouts, so they didn't have much time for working on all of the other spells.

Your third dislike: I would of liked to see more weapons as well, seeing a variety of flails and spears would bring nostalgia from past TES games.

Your fourth dislike: Hand holding has remained since Oblivion, but yeah the arrows are not necessary usually, there should of been a option to turn it off, all you need is to have either the location marked on your map, or specific directions written in your journal to find quest items or certain NPCs. The fast traveling system could of been different, I favored the idea of not being allowed to fast travel to a city unless if you pay for the carriages, which were like silt striders.

Your sixth dislike: The only reason for me to say that Skyrim is easy is because of all the health potions that you can easily stack up.

Your seventh dislike: The perk system can define your character too, so I guess we can kiss those attributes goodbye in TES.

Except that the perk system *doesn't* make up for them. At least on the important end of this conversation (that is, mine). The perks just don't work for me. At all. It's not a "perks are the devil" thing, either: The Witcher's talent system worked for me. The Fallout 3 system worked for me. Skyrim... I can't MAKE myself care. TES + attributes + smooth leveling mod > Skyrim + perks. At the end of the day, that's just how it is for me. The perk system just falls flat.

And this is how you express a complaint that you have with the game.

This is done respectfully. It acknowledges that it is not a global issue, but rather, something that doesn't work for him and something that he would like to see changed, without claiming it to be fact that his way is superior. Only that he does not like the current way, and believes the former way to be better.

I do not agree with your opinion, sir, but when such an opinion can be expressed the way yours was, I can have the conversation with you, and if nothing else, I can respect your opinion.

What about if i only mostly like it?

I feel like the only person in the world that hated attributes..
I much prefer the leveling system in Skyrim.
The only real beef I have with the game is the short quests and no real reason for food/sleep.
Other than that, i pretty much love it. You people need to take things with a pinch of salt.
Games will never be perfect. Get over yourselfs.

I don't get why people are so hung up about the removal of spears or throwing weapons... AFAIK, spears/polearms were only ever in Morrowind, and they were horrible weapons that did less damage than most one-handed weapons. As for throwing weapons, if I recall, horrible damage and range and limited utility compared to a bow. Also, while you may not like it, fewer weapon types also means that the weapon types in game will be better balanced relative to one another.

And the reason teleport spells were removed after Morrowind was due to the addition of the fast travel system. Also, the Almsivi Tribunal was unique to Morrowind: There's a reason there was no such spell was in Oblivion or in Skyrim: The Tribunal was never in any other province other than Morrowind. Don't like the fast travel system? Don't use it and walk on horseback or on foot.

Levitate spells have been gone since Oblivion since the cities are now in separate zones from the rest of the world, and levitating over the walls would dump you into an empty overworld with nothing in it. And from my experience, Burden spells/poisons were completely useless for a player to use on NPCs, since the odds of it actually hindering an NPC to a significant degree were low, compared to the effects of the player being hit with a burden effect, since the PC is usually going to be likely to loaded close to carrying capacity. Too many summon spells also means that the vast majority of summons will more than likely be useless, as well.

I don't miss attributes, either; removing them means you avoid the empty levels you could get in previous TES games and you don't get handicapped as a result. Sure, the perk system means you could still handicap yourself, but you have to try to do that by putting your perks in non-combat related abilities at the start.

Also, shallow world? I tend to feel more like my actions have actually impacted things in Skyrim compared to Morrowind or Oblivion, which were pretty static for the most part. The Gildergreen in Whiterun either blossoming into life again or replaced by the sapling you got from the Eldergreen being an example, or the damage Whiterun takes during the siege of Whiterun. Or the Jarls in Imperial/Stormcloak aligned cities being replaced depending on which side you are fighting for in the Civil War, and the holds guards being replaced with Imperial/Stormcloak soldiers.

I honestly prefer the quest system and compass that Oblivion/Skyrim have used compared to Morrowind, where I could spend an hour walking somewhere only to find out I misread the NPCs directions (or the directions were frustratingly vague or downright wrong) and went to the wrong place, on the wrong side of the map and now have to walk back to the starting point and figure out where I was supposed to go.

Well you have at least expressed an opinion and had the common sense to acknowledge it is ONLY YOUR opinion, rather than behaving like a blinkered asshat who believes they are speaking for EVERYONE.
BUT.
I have to agree with Solitudian on this point, I think the perk system is a very flexible and refreshing change from before and I've found it to be eminently useful for allowing for a much more freeform approach to development. I really can't see what the problem is.
Also.
You haven't really explained why in your opinion the perk system doesn't make up for traditional attributes. Why, exactly, don't you like it?

Indeed, there hasn't been a throwing weapon in TES since Morrowind, and the same goes for levitation.

Personally I think that some of the problem is that for some people playing Skyrim is their first experience of the TES canon and they've heard about what was done and what was not done and don't really understand or have not really thought through why those things are the way they are.
There are threads in the Morrowind forum which complain about the fact that there is no fast travel in Morrowind. Go figure.
Don't wanna walk? Go on a horse or take a carriage.

Hi there Zaydin! I do hope you're having a great day.

Now, about your post. I think there's one major issue that somehow gets forgotten whenever one decides to complain about complainers or even advise them to stop playing the game, stop posting, stop coming to the forums, etc. What's the issue being forgotten? Quite simply, the fact these people have paid good money for the game. That in itself entitles them to praise or criticize the game at their will. Advising someone not to come around and stop posting negative remarks about a game they paid good money for is as foolish as advising someone to stop praising it. Imagine saying that to an Amazon.com customer who reviewed Skyrim. Preposterous, right?
On topic, yes, Skyrim is a good game and can boast many feats. Depth just isn't one of them. The fact you could (*edit*) but mention minor instances as the epitome of consequential gaming speaks volumes. Nonetheless, the other points you bring are sound and reasonable and I commend you for the rational discussion om these topics.

i don't really dislike anything in skyrim. its just me feeling a lack of depth, the things i wish they had and potential i think they wasted