When I said a fourth of their forces I was strictly speaking about Hammerfell.

The thing is though Hammerfell would join the empire if they attacked the Dominion, why? Because they know that the empire would be powerful enough to do it and would aid them, they aren't hot-headed like the Stormcloaks and think that its better to see the empire die off before attacking the Dominion while Ulfric plans to do an all out attack on the Dominion even if he doesn't have enough support.

I think you're grossly ignoring Hammerfell's wounded pride and anger that they'd be abandoned in the first place, and the morale they gained by pushing the Dominion off by themselves.

Nothing is certain, so please stop speaking like everything is.

Dead ?
If you think so , then that's the reason for everyone to destroy Ulfric's cause and all the rebels.

Yes the only reason the empire will fall is these independence movements not the Thalmor if they stay united the dominion doesn't stand a chance and also as independent nations they attempt to fight the dominion solo this can't happen they'll lose that way hammerfell is all on it's own and I don't think they can win without Cyrodiil, Skyrim, and High Rock. (I don't include Morrowind or Black Marsh because both are isolationist).

Again the Redguards aren't stupid, they are a great and smart people who have had many great tacticians to grace their race and warfare and violence is like second nature to them, they are a honorable people and skilled warriors, they know that when it comes to destroy a great enemy pride must be put aside.



Morrowind is only isolationism because they are busy rebuilding their society, I believe if they could they would fight the Thalmor but theres no way of knowing that.

But you're forgetting the fact that hammerfell also really doesn't like the dominion and their main reason for seperation was so they could continue the war if the empire wanted to help I believe they'd accept help and most likely rejoin the empire.

Yeah but no one from Bethesda has said that the Empire is the only way to defeat the Thalmor. So I mean, their great tactics could be without the Empire.

Bionicchimp, they don't like the Empire either. The Empire was their brother and their brother abandoned them to sign a treaty with their enemy. YOU'RE the one forgetting.

But usually allies go good with waging wars against a larger foe.

No one from Bethesda said that independent provinces are the only way to defeat the Thalmor, I'm speaking from the side of tactics and it still clear to see that an empire is a better way to preserve some amount of order then independent nations.

I agree with Treng here, you are ignoring a lot of Hammerfall her history. The only reason they are part of the Empire is because a civil war weakened one of the two mayor sides so much that they begged the Empire for help. The chances of people like that going in and saying, we want to join you again especially after the recent betrayel are incredibly small. From what we know of Hammerfall today they would never ever do it. They might be willing to form an alliance against the Thalmor though, if they can get over their pride for being given away.

That's the best you can hope for, well that or a war in Hammerfall that will bring the province back into the Empire, but that will just cost a lot of lives and troops and would give the Thalmor a perfect reason to attack as it can be seen as a breach of the WGC.


Why? The Empire has to worry about a lot of area's. The Imperial province, High Rock, possibly Hammerfall, Morrowind, Skyrim. An alliance of independent provinces would be far better equipped to deal with the Thalmor in my opinion. Primarily because a province like Morrowind could be ignored, and you won't lose troops there, you can also ignore local politics as many Nords would be more willing to fight with the Empire then under the Empire and the same would go for Redguards.

Note i never said that Hammerfell would rejoin the empire, I just said that they would ally themselves with the empire if they decided to attack the Dominion, I'm sure that they would most likely demand to remain independent as a condition on aiding the empire.

IF Hammerfell comes back to the Empire within the timeline of the Elder Scrolls 5, it will be because the Dovahkiin sided with the Empire and went to Hammerfell to get them back. Honestly I see that happening for the Stormcloaks moreso.

Th concordat is crap and if the empire wants to beat the Dominion they need redguard help one way or another.

We don't even know if Ulfric actually does plan on attacking the Dominion, it could just be more broken promises to encourage the people to join him, this is the person who claims the empire are the puppets of the Thalmor after all.

Plus the plan to attack the Dominion is on a need-to-know basis which only a few Legates actually know about while Ulfric is going "WE WILL ATTACK THE DOMINION" thus if the Stormcloaks won the Dominion would know that he plans on attacking and heavily defend the borders more while the Empire can successfully launch a blitzkrieg and several sneak attacks if they won an managed to gain enough support in skyrim, which wouldn't be hard for them to do.

Even an alliance is far fetched though. If you ally with Hammerfall then that will go against the WGC, or at least that argument can be made. So you need to be ready for war. The Thalmor will have spies everywhere so they will learn about an alliance like that being made and there is a risk of you being attacked before you can integrate your armies.

Your best option is to ally once in war, but then why would the redguards join you? Instead of sitting back and enjoying the view, or alternatively attacking somewhere else or invading the Imperial province in the first place?



And how would you go about achieving that? Diplomatic negotiations? Invading the province, promises of wealth and fortune?

Because if redguards stop defending their borders from the dominion to poke at the empire then they'll be crushed plus they know who the real enemy is.

Not if the dealings were behind closed doors, the Thalmor don't have eyes and ears everywhere as most people think plus even so the empire can just launch their attack, take the Dominion by surprise then ask the Redguards to help which would mean that the sneak attack is still successful and that the redguards might join if the legions actually making a large dent into Dominion territory.

You really need to start looking through the eyes of a tactician.

I'm saying that if Ulfric is true to wanting to give the Elves the boot, the Stormcloaks have more in common with Hammerfell than the Empire does.

True they aren't all knowing they're still mortal plus you could have nord representatives meet with redguards I highly doubt you'd find too many Thalmor in that crowd.

The Empire wants the Dominion gone as much as the Stormcloaks do, as I've said the only reason the WGC exists is because the Imperials needs time to rebuild and plan for a counter attack in secret where as Ulfric even if true to his word will announce his arrival, how do I know this? Because Ulfric isn't that smart and has a loud mouth and too much pride.

You're not really answering my question here. Anyway the Redguards probably hate the Thalmor and want them all dead, this is true. But that doesn't mean they will just join any random alliance.


To deal in Hammerfall you would need to deal with two mayor political parties. Getting one on your side isn't enough you need both, those parties will also need to talk to each other and deal with each other. You would need to keep the Elder Council and the Emperor involved, you would need to prepare your legions for the upcoming war, somewhere somehow information like that could leak. It doesn't have to but it's very likely and a huge risk to take, because failure and a leak would mean another war. Succes and a leak might mean war before you even start fighting, and succes without a leak would offer a huge benefit but only if you actually succeed.

You didn't get my reference.

The empire literally abandoned Hammerfell when it signed the Whitegold Concordat.
The Stormcloaks believe that the Empire abandoned Skyrim with it signed the Whitegold Concordat.

Both sides feel that the Empire is the Aldmeri Dominion's slave. Both sides really hate the Dominion. Both sides are warrior cultures.

Both sides want revenge.

Note how I said after they've launched their counter attack and if the Dominion tries to attack Hammerfell while the Empire is attacking the Dominion in Elsewyr and Valenwood then that would just cause the Redguards to a quicker decision due to the fact that the Dominion tried to invade Redguard shores.



But the difference is the Redguards are smart where as the Stormcloaks are just hot-headed and listened to too many of Ulfric's lies and slander, and we have no way of actually knowing if Hammerfell thinks that the empire is the slave of the Dominion, its never revealed through in-game dialogue or any other source.

Also if the Empire launches several attacks on the Dominion I'm pretty sure that proves they aren't the slaves of the Dominion and Hammerfell would ally themselves with the empire.

Why would the Dominion open a second front while dealing with a single enemy? They aren't incompetent either.